High school Christian club banned

[Mr Danksworth]

I would never send my kid to a "youth group" from a particular church because I know what goes on at these so called summer Bible camps.

Please do tell, sounds juicy. I know that at the bible camps I attended, the ladies found jesus in the chapel and then found god in my bunk.

[Born_again]

You can see that I am at a loss to find fault with a position (religious clubs) that doesn't really vibe with my outlook as an atheist. Where is the non-emotional and well-reasoned argument for banning them?

Too true. Admittedly, my arguments thus far have carried a veiled subtlety that I was forlornly hoping my adversaries would fathom without further discussion
(just take a look at my earlier posts in this thread). Believe it or not, I find myself caught in a paradox whereby I must necessarily force myself to ally with those I distrust, for what I would hope will result in a better understanding of my deep-seated concern, and possibly theirs!. And yes, I allowed myself to get a little wayward throughout this distasteful alliance, but frustration got the better of me.

...... but goddammit I've rarely if ever met an atheist that held political enterprise or the pursuit of truth above the protection of legitimate freedoms.

I'll hope that after reading the following you will come to understand how 'legitimate freedoms' factor into my argument.

Whats worse, some posters that have exemplified a persona that I look up to are now taking a stance that makes little sense to me, and not that they're obligated, but I wish that they gave an overarching explanation that fit the subject instead of something that smacked of ideology.


I plead for a rationale.

My offering:

Presently in Canadian society there is a status quo between religion and secularism which I find almost bearable. Yes, my daily life is full of impingements and artifices of religion and its artefacts, but I have thick skin and a rudimentary understanding of why people want religion, and why governments like it. I can live with that. Like I've said, currently its bearable; but for how long?

Perspectives: The small town in which I live (pop.5,0000) has at least 6 registered places of worship (in Congregational-catchement terms) plus 1 bible camp, and only 1 primary school(203 students).

Now, although this does not form any part of my main point, I would like people to be mindful of the fact that there is absolutely no shortage of opportunity for any child to become involved in prayer clubs in my town, nor anyone's in Canada. Am I right or wrong in this assumption?

The adage of; "There's a time and place for everything" in my opinion rings true here. Education is what schools are about, and worship is what churches etc. are about. Is that basic statement flawed?

I posit that only a person indoctrinated into the dogmatic outlook of 'perpetual persecution mentality' for their particular faith, would see this solitary primary school as evidence of their persecution, should it become out-of-bounds to the practice of their particular faith. Is that unreasonable?

The Nitty Gritty: BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR!

Canada can no longer be thought of as some distant colonial pioneering opportunity for decent, hardy people seeking a new life, or the expansion of Empire. Right now it is nothing more than the UK was in the 60's; when the flood-gates were opened to multiculturalism. As that policy has matured the people of the UK are now reaping what they sewed. They are waking each morning to a fresh barrage of 'threats' to their 'founding' religion's dominance, and their very way of life. Guess what? It's not the atheists that they are so concerned about ......

If you must be so self-centred and arrogant to wish to push your particular faith into the public schools, then YOU MUST respect the 'freedoms' of other people and their faiths also, including the fastest growing religion in the world!!

So, for the meek and persecuted little souls that have been blessed/persecuted by this kindly/evil headmaster, your small sacrifice may bear fruit in the long run -- and legend has it that Jesus was big on the 'sacrifice' thing!

Think about it!

[normaM]

"The adage of; "There's a time and place for everything" in my opinion rings true here. Education is what schools are about, and worship is what churches etc. are about. Is that basic statement flawed?"

You are joking, right? The average kid isn't getting an "education" in public schools. When was the last time you taught in a school?

[Captain Awesome]

You are joking, right? The average kid isn't getting an "education" in public schools. When was the last time you taught in a school?

Excuse me. If it's not education people are getting at school....Then the whole school thing is what, glorified babysitting?

[quietlywatching84]

Excuse me. If it's not education people are getting at school....Then the whole school thing is what, glorified babysitting?

Probably worse. You can graduate from high school knowing all the major WW2 battles, how to play an instrument and basic biology. On the other hand, do they know how to fill out an income tax return?

All the above mentioned are important, but which one comes first in the "general survival" area?

[Captain Awesome]

Probably worse. You can graduate from high school knowing all the major WW2 battles, how to play an instrument and basic biology. On the other hand, do they know how to fill out an income tax return?

Well, isn't that what supposed to be education? I mean sure, if it was to me school would consist of phys ed, forced labor, and marching around (we have the army for that though) and other things like biology wouldn't survive due to their uselessness in the "real" world. But school always been exactly that - history lessons, biology lessons, arts lessons...

[hellomynameis]

You can see that I am at a loss to find fault with a position (religious clubs) that doesn't really vibe with my outlook as an atheist. Where is the non-emotional and well-reasoned argument for banning them?

Too true. Admittedly, my arguments thus far have carried a veiled subtlety that I was forlornly hoping my adversaries would fathom without further discussion
(just take a look at my earlier posts in this thread). Believe it or not, I find myself caught in a paradox whereby I must necessarily force myself to ally with those I distrust, for what I would hope will result in a better understanding of my deep-seated concern, and possibly theirs!. And yes, I allowed myself to get a little wayward throughout this distasteful alliance, but frustration got the better of me.

...... but goddammit I've rarely if ever met an atheist that held political enterprise or the pursuit of truth above the protection of legitimate freedoms.

I'll hope that after reading the following you will come to understand how 'legitimate freedoms' factor into my argument.

Whats worse, some posters that have exemplified a persona that I look up to are now taking a stance that makes little sense to me, and not that they're obligated, but I wish that they gave an overarching explanation that fit the subject instead of something that smacked of ideology.


I plead for a rationale.

My offering:

Presently in Canadian society there is a status quo between religion and secularism which I find almost bearable. Yes, my daily life is full of impingements and artifices of religion and its artefacts, but I have thick skin and a rudimentary understanding of why people want religion, and why governments like it. I can live with that. Like I've said, currently its bearable; but for how long?

Perspectives: The small town in which I live (pop.5,0000) has at least 6 registered places of worship (in Congregational-catchement terms) plus 1 bible camp, and only 1 primary school(203 students).

Now, although this does not form any part of my main point, I would like people to be mindful of the fact that there is absolutely no shortage of opportunity for any child to become involved in prayer clubs in my town, nor anyone's in Canada. Am I right or wrong in this assumption?

I would agree, there isn't a shortage.

The adage of; "There's a time and place for everything" in my opinion rings true here. Education is what schools are about, and worship is what churches etc. are about. Is that basic statement flawed?

Certainly there are appropriate and inappropriate items that an education system could adopt and I agree that whatever a school does it should to a large degree relate to some form of education.

I posit that only a person indoctrinated into the dogmatic outlook of 'perpetual persecution mentality' for their particular faith, would see this solitary primary school as evidence of their persecution, should it become out-of-bounds to the practice of their particular faith. Is that unreasonable?

I believe it is unreasonable, couldn't they feel persecuted on legal/educational grounds instead?

The Nitty Gritty: BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU WISH FOR!

Canada can no longer be thought of as some distant colonial pioneering opportunity for decent, hardy people seeking a new life, or the expansion of Empire. Right now it is nothing more than the UK was in the 60's; when the flood-gates were opened to multiculturalism. As that policy has matured the people of the UK are now reaping what they sewed. They are waking each morning to a fresh barrage of 'threats' to their 'founding' religion's dominance, and their very way of life. Guess what? It's not the atheists that they are so concerned about ......


If you must be so self-centred and arrogant to wish to push your particular faith into the public schools, then YOU MUST respect the 'freedoms' of other people and their faiths also, including the fastest growing religion in the world!!



So, for the meek and persecuted little souls that have been blessed/persecuted by this kindly/evil headmaster, your small sacrifice may bear fruit in the long run -- and legend has it that Jesus was big on the 'sacrifice' thing!

Think about it!

Could I paraphrase all this as:

Student clubs that have religion as the subject are the thin end of a wedge that could be used to make further religious inroads into the education system and that banning these clubs would set the the education system on a firmer foundation of secularism?

May I be that bold?

[Big ned]

This all comes back to the fear that the atheists have of religion. I don't understand it because if you truly don't believe in God, then why are someone else's beliefs such a threat?

Your statement on persecution is ridiculous. I've already stated that I don't care which religion has a club as long as they follow the laws of the land. Too often discussions on religion topple into a bottomless crevasse of generalizations that are completely inaccurate.

Let's make one thing clear. School clubs are not part of the cirriculum and therefor if you are trying to argue that schools should not teach religion, the argument falls flat. Also the argument that there are plenty of places for "prayer meetings" for these kids leads the discussion in a completely false avenue. The school religion clubs are for kids to discuss religion, not sit an listen to a preacher indoctrinate them. Some kids may not attend a church... perhaps there are children of parents who aren't religious, but have an interest themselves in religion... perhaps they even have atheist parents. Would it not be better for these children to discuss with their peers why or why not they should believe in religion? Isn't it more therapeutic to listen to a kid your own age?

There may even be atheist kids that want to attend to give his view on why he doesn't believe in God.

To say that religion clubs have anything to do with school cirriculum and so called separation of church and state in a straw man argument that doesn't stand. It is actually more like grasping at straws in order to cover up a bigger agenda me thinks.

[Born_again]

I posit that only a person indoctrinated into the dogmatic outlook of 'perpetual persecution mentality' for their particular faith, would see this solitary primary school as evidence of their persecution, should it become out-of-bounds to the practice of their particular faith. Is that unreasonable?

I believe it is unreasonable, couldn't they feel persecuted on legal/educational grounds instead?

Let's face it, these people feel persecuted no matter what happens in their lives. They will stop at nothing to twist and malign the most innocent of situations or scenarios to wear that 'medal of persecution' on their chests. Once the battle honours have been dished-out, it's a full-on onslaught into every public office or establishment of the land. It's a dogmatic trait that's been ingrained into their consciousness from a tender age.
You only need to read up on Pastor Dave's sermons whereby he literally orders parents of his congregation to groom their children specifically for careers involving public office positions. It's a cancer, and the first round of chemo should be targeted at our public schools.

If they feel that they can mount a legal challenge, then so be it; it's their right. That will lead us neatly back to, "be careful of what you wish for", should they win.

Which leads to ......

Could I paraphrase all this as:

Student clubs that have religion as the subject are the thin end of a wedge that could be used to make further religious inroads into the education system and that banning these clubs would set the the education system on a firmer foundation of secularism?

May I be that bold?

Hmm .... almost, but not quite. I firmly believe that religions should be discussed at schools. In fact I strongly feel that religion should be thoroughly dissected, scrutinised and critically examined at the deepest levels; be it by moderated 'clubs', debates or objective classroom education.
The practise(by groups) or proselytising(by anyone) of faiths at public schools is what I find wholly objectionable. Not only does it serve to isolate groups of students(yes, CHILDREN) based on rigidly exclusive ideologies/beliefs, it engenders at an early age that tribal mentality(which has served us primates well in an evolutionary sense) that is no longer is necessary nor appropriate in modern society. No matter how you cut it, these groups are by design inherently suited for conflict, distrust and fear of each other. At the very least, we are setting out the Petri dish for phobias and mistrust when penicillin is what is sorely needed.
Another consideration is that once these parent-driven groups take root, it's only a short step to parent lobby groups proposing that 'Intelligent Design', '72 virgins', 'Creation Science' and 'flat earth' fantasies be included in the formal curricula to assuage pressure on particular doctrinal belief systems.

[nolanrh]

This all comes back to the fear that the atheists have of religion. I don't understand it because if you truly don't believe in God, then why are someone else's beliefs such a threat?

Oh gag. Ned you have a lot of very rational atheists on your side. Don't ruin it by posting drivel like this There are good arguments being made by both sides, none of which are based on fear.

[Mr Danksworth]

No doubt. This has been one of the most civil discussions in a long while. Seems like Neddy and Steve can't help but break out the old canards. Colour me surprised.

[Born_again]

This all comes back to the fear that the atheists have of religion. I don't understand it because if you truly don't believe in God, then why are someone else's beliefs such a threat?

Stop it, please! You simply cannot be so naïve as to not understand the valid concerns based on historical fact that atheists or secularists have when it comes to religion in public life.

Your statement on persecution is ridiculous. I've already stated that I don't care which religion has a club as long as they follow the laws of the land.

Is it? Then prithee ridicule it!
Do you care who will one day be making the laws of the land?

Let's make one thing clear. School clubs are not part of the cirriculum and therefor if you are trying to argue that schools should not teach religion, the argument falls flat.

LOL

Also the argument that there are plenty of places for "prayer meetings" for these kids leads the discussion in a completely false avenue.

Hmmm ....yes, it would be wouldn't it, Big ned? I'm guessing that that valid argument didn't sit too well with you, did it? Never mind, you can choose to ignore the fact ....... if it helps you.

The school religion clubs are for kids to discuss religion, not sit an listen to a preacher indoctrinate them.

Your wording, not mine. We are discussing a PRAYER CLUB, Big ned! Do they sit and discuss prayer, or PRAY? Forgive me, but is group prayer not practising Faith? Don't try to play with words or meanings Big ned, it's demeaning to both you and I.

Some kids may not attend a church... perhaps there are children of parents who aren't religious, but have an interest themselves in religion... perhaps they even have atheist parents.

Ohhhhh no!! Persecution by proxy. ROFL That's a new one for me.... [wipes tears] thanks for that, Big ned.

Would it not be better for these children to discuss with their peers why or why not they should believe in religion? Isn't it more therapeutic to listen to a kid your own age?

I don't know, Big ned. Is it? Regardless, it's all academic in this case as the kids want a prayer club. Doesn't sound much like they want to discuss religion, but to practice it.

There may even be atheist kids that want to attend to give his view on why he doesn't believe in God.

Sorry, but I'm all out of tears after the 'persecution by proxy' thingee. I promise to re-read it later to get best value from that statement.

To say that religion clubs have anything to do with school cirriculum and so called separation of church and state in a straw man argument that doesn't stand. It is actually more like grasping at straws in order to cover up a bigger agenda me thinks.

Keep thinking, Big ned; but do feel free to go through the pain barrier.

Tara for now!

[zzontar]

The last time I was in a High school I thought prayer clubs were happening in the hallways as they all stood there with their heads bowed, but of course they were just texting.

[normaM]

You are joking, right? The average kid isn't getting an "education" in public schools. When was the last time you taught in a school?

Excuse me. If it's not education people are getting at school....Then the whole school thing is what, glorified babysitting?

Yep

[normaM]

I posit that only a person indoctrinated into the dogmatic outlook of 'perpetual persecution mentality' for their particular faith, would see this solitary primary school as evidence of their persecution, should it become out-of-bounds to the practice of their particular faith. Is that unreasonable?

I believe it is unreasonable, couldn't they feel persecuted on legal/educational grounds instead?

Let's face it, these people feel persecuted no matter what happens in their lives. They will stop at nothing to twist and malign the most innocent of situations or scenarios to wear that 'medal of persecution' on their chests. Once the battle honours have been dished-out, it's a full-on onslaught into every public office or establishment of the land. It's a dogmatic trait that's been ingrained into their consciousness from a tender age.
You only need to read up on Pastor Dave's sermons whereby he literally orders parents of his congregation to groom their children specifically for careers involving public office positions. It's a cancer, and the first round of chemo should be targeted at our public schools.

If they feel that they can mount a legal challenge, then so be it; it's their right. That will lead us neatly back to, "be careful of what you wish for", should they win.

Which leads to ......

Could I paraphrase all this as:

Student clubs that have religion as the subject are the thin end of a wedge that could be used to make further religious inroads into the education system and that banning these clubs would set the the education system on a firmer foundation of secularism?

May I be that bold?

Hmm .... almost, but not quite. I firmly believe that religions should be discussed at schools. In fact I strongly feel that religion should be thoroughly dissected, scrutinised and critically examined at the deepest levels; be it by moderated 'clubs', debates or objective classroom education.
The practise(by groups) or proselytising(by anyone) of faiths at public schools is what I find wholly objectionable. Not only does it serve to isolate groups of students(yes, CHILDREN) based on rigidly exclusive ideologies/beliefs, it engenders at an early age that tribal mentality(which has served us primates well in an evolutionary sense) that is no longer is necessary nor appropriate in modern society. No matter how you cut it, these groups are by design inherently suited for conflict, distrust and fear of each other. At the very least, we are setting out the Petri dish for phobias and mistrust when penicillin is what is sorely needed.
Another consideration is that once these parent-driven groups take root, it's only a short step to parent lobby groups proposing that 'Intelligent Design', '72 virgins', 'Creation Science' and 'flat earth' fantasies be included in the formal curricula to assuage pressure on particular doctrinal belief systems.

am I one of "these people"?