Continuing revelation

[Mr Danksworth]

And they have built a built in welfare system so the sheep can keep paying! Glory to god unto the highest. What a scam.

[Big ned]

Just the kind of response I would expect from you two.

We know why we pay tithing and that is good enough for us.

[RR24K]

Interesting

Today, people estimate that the LDS Church collects about $4.3 billion a year through tithing, plus $400 million from its ecclesiastical enterprises. In tithing receipts alone that comes to almost $12 million per day.
Another $4 billion annually is generated by the Church's business subsidiaries. This brings the yearly total up to $8.7 billion. That would make 54th or 55th place on the Fortune 500 list, above Honeywell, General Mills, and Campbell Soup.
Shearson-Lehman-Hutton is the broker for the LDS church. They handle almost all of the church's investments apart from charity, administration, and construction -- close to $200 million every year.
The Mormon Church disputes these figures, but only generally. They will not correct specific errors; instead, they insist that these estimates are "grossly overstated." Church officials refuse to make public even their personal income tax returns. John Heinerman, co-author of the 1985 book The Mormon Corporate Empire, said this:
The Mormon corporate empire, in terms of dollars
and cents, is rather impressive for several reasons.
Number one, in the book, we take a conservative figure
of about $8.5 billion that the empire is worth, and we
of course have footnotes in the back of the book
showing how we arrived at those figures. But really,
with all the research that we have done, the figure is
closer to $11.5 to $12 billion, worldwide, including
all their investments and holdings.
The real estate division of the church conducts brisk dealings in land. Zion's Security Corporation, the church's commercial real estate arm, controls numerous office buildings in Salt Lake City, including regional headquarters for Kennecott Copper Company, J.C. Penney, Prudential Federal Savings and Loan, and many church facilities. It also owns the sprawling ZCMI (Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution) Mall in downtown Salt Lake as well as a controlling interest in the ZCMI store chain.
Since 1977 a sister corporation, Beneficial Development Corporation, has taken over development work for the church, and has established several industrial parks in association with private developers in Florida, Arizona, Los Angeles, Hawaii, and Utah.
The known agricultural lands consist of at least 928,000 acres including the 300,000 Deseret Ranch near the Disney complex in central Florida and 95,000 acres near Cardston, Alberta, Canada. All together the holdings are larger than the famous King Ranch empire of Texas, which holds 825,000 acres.
Other sources of Mormon wealth are the insurance companies, retail stores, office buildings, and other business properties in Utah and elsewhere. The Beneficial Life Insurance company, founded to provide life insurance to church members, has expanded into a major subsidiary with holdings in the Deseret Mutual Benefit Association, Continental Western Life Insurance Company, the Pacific Heritage Assurance Life Insurance Company, and the Western American Life Insurance Company, which, according to Utah state government records, have a combined value of $94 million.
The media arm of the Mormon Church is the Bonneville International Corporation. It owns or has owned:
Radio Stations
--------------
Chicago KTMX-FM and WCLR-FM
Dallas KAAM-AM, KZPS-FM and KAFM-FM
Kansas City KMBZ-AM and KMBR-FM
Los Angeles KBIG-FM
New York WNSR-FM
Phoenix KMEO-AM/FM
Salt Lake KSL-AM
San Francisco KOIT-AM/FM
Seattle KIRO-AM and KSEA-FM

Television Stations
-------------------
B.Y.U. KBYU
New York WRFM
Salt Lake KSL
Seattle KIRO
This media empire was estimated in 1985 at being $547 million in assets, including: $134 million for the radio stations, $178 million for the TV stations, and $59 million for the Deseret News book and newspaper printing, distribution, and retail outlets.

[Mr Danksworth]

We know why we pay tithing and that is good enough for us.

Who'd have known that 'heaven' has a price tag? I guess it's all good as long as you pay up, sucka.

[Sierra T]

Years ago I read a lot of science fiction, I tried to read some ron hubbard sci fi, it was grammatically so awful, and so poorly written that I gave up within 10 pages, I don't recall the name of the book. I decided he was not too bright - now I see I was wrong, he was brighter than his cultist followers. Maybe that makes the case against evolution.

[zzontar]

I don't think it's right they have to pay 10% of their wages either, but even if they had to pay 90% of their wages, it wouldn't bug me as I don't have to. What bugs me is the high income tax I have no choice but to pay even though a huge percentage gets wasted due to incompetence. Makes me wonder why anyone would be much so much more upset about money they don't have to spend than money they have no choice to spend.

[Big ned]

Tithing has been a law of God since the very beginning. Don't know why that surprises all you anti religion people. you will find it in the Old testament. The only thing different about the LDS church is that the members are faithful in paying it. You don't have to pay to be a member, I would estimate the % of people who actually pay at about 25% of the membership.

I know what I get in return for following the commandments of God, I don't know why you all are so concerned with it.

[Jo]

Post your comments for or against but please d not post the joke videos and one-liner comments that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you're just posting to say 'it sucks' or any other version of said, save your energy, it will be deleted.

[RePete]

Tithing has been a law of God since the very beginning. Don't know why that surprises all you anti religion people. you will find it in the Old testament. The only thing different about the LDS church is that the members are faithful in paying it. You don't have to pay to be a member, I would estimate the % of people who actually pay at about 25% of the membership.

I know what I get in return for following the commandments of God, I don't know why you all are so concerned with it.

The obvious and most widely asked question is, why doesn't god just cut you a cheque. I know that might seem a juvenile comment but let's get real here. All of these folks building expensive, tax free churches and needing cash to keep the word rolling when a true omnipotent god should be able to, well, just spread the word to everyone, all at once. You know, like a miracle.

I'm sorry Ned, it's just so bogus. At least being a "free thinker" is, umm, free.

[hellomynameis]

For your time and for my long windedness I can only reciprocate any likewise response or even lack of one, whichever is called for based upon your learned reason. I can only reciprocate to you in the best of limited abilities an expenditure of like resources, for you who has conferred a Boon

Which brings me to:

Tithing has been a law of God since the very beginning. Don't know why that surprises all you anti religion people. you will find it in the Old testament. The only thing different about the LDS church is that the members are faithful in paying it. You don't have to pay to be a member, I would estimate the % of people who actually pay at about 25% of the membership.

I know what I get in return for following the commandments of God, I don't know why you all are so concerned with it.

Get a grip on what Christianity believes.. this is old testament.. it doesn't apply to Christians, it applies to Jews. If you can't distinguish the two maybe you should post on the subject...

So, tithing should still be observed as an Old Testament commandment? I would assume that is only the case because it has qualifiers in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 16:2, among others) but than what about all the other Old Testament laws that have qualification in the New testament or don't have disqualifiers. From a Christian background myself, I will grant that,

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." ~ Matthew 5: 17-19

Also,

Jeremiah 31:31-34 and a few other verses do exempt Christians from following most Old Testament laws/practices that are no longer necessary due to Jesus's "fulfillment" but what about the old Testament moral laws and like you brought up, tithing?

These seem to be qualified in the NT to a large degree. Also, there seems to be a rather large contradiction in what Jesus, through Luke and Mathew, and others had to say about the law and what Paul had to say about it, though I understand that many Christians smooth this out by taking the vagary of Luke, Mathew etc

(after all, what was meant by Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16: 17 (among others) ?)

and use Paul to derive a meaning.

A meaning that divorces a varying degree of OT law from needing to be observed. It is my belief that many Christians vary this degree of observance of the OT by interpreting scripture through:

- The ideology that defines their particular denomination.

- Communication/deferment to God, which imo, is blatantly contradictory and therefore either falsified or unfalsifiable.



Does my post have a point beyond allowing me to vent my random ramblings? Perhaps not.
I was spurned into posting when I noticed what appears to be a inconsistency in how Ned talks about the OT, figured I owed him a little 'bible talk'.

[Big ned]

Thanks for your Bible talk. Might need to do a little more study.
The law of moses was intended to turn the Israelites hearts toward the coming of Jesus Christ. Much of the law of Moses did exactly that. The blood sacrificing of firstlings of the flock was part of the law of moses... all the rules on what to eat and what not to eat, how far to walk on the sabbath etc. These were the things that Christ fulfilled when he came. They were no longer necessary because they were intended to focus God's people on the coming of Christ and to teach obedience to a people who were anything but at Mount Sinai.

If you don't understand the difference between those type of laws that were fulfilled in Christ and laws such as the 10 commandments and tithing, then you need to do more homework... I can't take the time to teach you.

My statement on the LDS people being faithful in paying tithing was simply to point out that most other churches ignore the commandment. They rely on donations which go mostly to their preachers and pastors... the lds church has no paid clergy, and as I posted in another thread, I think anyone who teaches the word for money is not doing what Christ taught.

[hellomynameis]

...
If you don't understand the difference between those type of laws that were fulfilled in Christ and laws such as the 10 commandments and tithing, then you need to do more homework... I can't take the time to teach you.

Wowza.. That is exactly what I addressed in my post. Although I took it further and stated, in so many words, that the "homework" invariably goes through a interpretation filter that results in a myriad of Christian denominations/sects that give a varying degree of weight to certain parts of the OT.

Of course a great many of these people believe they have the 'T'ruth, the correct interpretation, and that all the others are misguided, or even a cult...



My statement on the LDS people being faithful in paying tithing was simply to point out that most other churches ignore the commandment. They rely on donations which go mostly to their preachers and pastors... the lds church has no paid clergy, and as I posted in another thread, I think anyone who teaches the word for money is not doing what Christ taught.

Fair enough.

[hellomynameis]

If you don't understand the difference between those type of laws that were fulfilled in Christ and laws such as the 10 commandments and tithing, then you need to do more homework.

To continue,

This has nothing to do with me not understanding "the difference", the problem is that christendom as a whole cannot come to an agreed upon understanding.

Now that is a whole topic unto itself and moreover one that probably has no end, so lets not concern ourselves with that for the moment.

Lets stick with you for now.

I'm not completely familiar with the position of the LDS church on this matter but I gather that they (you) see a division between what are commonly called "Moses Law" and the "Commandments of God", is that correct?

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled only Moses Law or both?

And what are the implications of this fulfilment according to the LDS church, what degree of import do they hold? I.e. are the fulfilled laws only of historical/scholarly importance or is there any guidance/obligation to be found in them?


I rather have a conversation about this than be redirected to a website, although I'd be more than happy if you included some references.

[Big ned]

I would be happy to respond to that question.

The Law of Moses was given to the children of Israel in the desert after Moses returned from the mount and found them to be in a state of rebellion.. creating a golden calf to worship and following after the egyptian way of "God worship".

Then ten commandments were not "the law of Moses". The law of moses were very detailed instructions on how to live ones life day to day (how many steps could be taken on the sabbath, instructions on what sins must be paid for by blood sacrifice of an animal etc) These were all things that were intended to have the effect of keeping the Children of Israel focused on the coming of Christ and his own blood atonement. When that act had occured, there was no need to continue the law of Moses because the reason it had been implemented had already occurred.

Tithing was not part of the Law of Moses... it in no way was intended to keep the focus on Christ, it was (like many of the ten commandments) a test of obedience. It is a law with a promised blessing that those who pay faithfully can obtain.

Here is how a member of the quorum of the 12 apostles explains this point of doctrine.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

I would be happy to answer any more questions.

[RR24K]

*removed/Jo*