InSite Safe Injections Site Closure

[steven lloyd]

Steven, The two are really separate issues and I think you did a disservice to the Insite issue by bringing a seperate subject into this thread in the first place.

You're right. Fair enough.

As for “justifying” the “disposal” of human lives that is an issue you would have to ask those that choose to dispose of their lives by shooting up with whatever drug of choice they decide to use.

Believe it or not, understand it or not, this issue is not so easily explained by suggesting some people "choose to dispose of their lives by shooting up" and I think you have the intelligence to realize that - or at least I am confident you have the intelligence to come to understand and appreciate that if you just did some study into the issues of poverty and addiction with an unbiased mind. Anyways, I don't have time to get into this now and we've been so many times before.

Have a good one Al.

[Al Czervic]

Steven, The two are really separate issues and I think you did a disservice to the Insite issue by bringing a seperate subject into this thread in the first place.

You're right. Fair enough.

As for “justifying” the “disposal” of human lives that is an issue you would have to ask those that choose to dispose of their lives by shooting up with whatever drug of choice they decide to use.

Believe it or not, understand it or not, this issue is not so easily explained by suggesting some people "choose to dispose of their lives by shooting up" and I think you have the intelligence to realize that - or at least I am confident you have the intelligence to come to understand and appreciate that if you just did some study into the issues of poverty and addiction with an unbiased mind. Anyways, I don't have time to get into this now and we've been so many times before.

Have a good one Al.

As you know when it comes to “addiction” there is indeed different schools of thought on this topic. There are those who believe people do make a choice to shoot up drugs and there are others who believe otherwise. As you know I am big believer of choice and I believe people have choices to make and they make them accordingly. As such I also believe they should be held accountable for their choices in life. Leftists typically view this issue a fair bit differently then I do and that really is an ideological debate.

At any rate while we may disagree with the reasons why a person ends up on drugs I do agree with you that the solution to the problem is not simple and I also believe that currently how we deal with drug use is flat out wrong and not working. The drug problem is in part a by-product of how our welfare system “works” and the fact is welfare is a dismal failure how it is currently instituted. In my view at least. I am certain the drug dealers of British Columbia are very happy with how our welfare system works.

I believe I have an idea on what it would take to actually help fix our welfare system but it would never work.

[deadscape]

As you know when it comes to “addiction” there is indeed different schools of thought on this topic. There are those who believe people do make a choice to shoot up drugs and there are others who believe otherwise. As you know I am big believer of choice and I believe people have choices to make and they make them accordingly. As such I also believe they should be held accountable for their choices in life.
The choice is personal, agreed. However, the effect of those choices may not be known. Narcotics is such a taboo topic with our children that they 'know not what they do". That one choice to 'try' something could hinder them for the rest of their lives. Drug addiction stems from the rewriting of our neurology, making the obvious choice illogical in contrast to following the next hit. If there was more education on this front, I believe addiction wouldn't be as much of a problem in our society.
Leftists typically view this issue a fair bit differently then I do and that really is an ideological debate.

I believe I have an idea on what it would take to actually help fix our welfare system but it would never work.
You never know until you put it out there.

[quietlywatching84]

I believe I have an idea on what it would take to actually help fix our welfare system but it would never work.

What is it?

[Al Czervic]

I believe I have an idea on what it would take to actually help fix our welfare system but it would never work.

What is it?

I posted it for discussion here....

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=23815

[quietlywatching84]

I believe I have an idea on what it would take to actually help fix our welfare system but it would never work.

What is it?

I posted it for discussion here....

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=23815

Ok, yeah I just posted over there. I agree that we should provide the drugs @ insite free of charge, we'd have much better results.

Also, the possibilities of controlling the addiction in this manner would increase magnificently. If they could track each user and control dosages they could possiblely ween people off. These are the kinds of ideas that I think could work much better than any program we have now.

I would prefer we keep this site open and use it to develop treatments like this.

[Captain Awesome]

Well, people that defend Insite usually point out to Insite practice to refer clients to rehab and other services to get them off drugs. But when somebody comes in 400 times/year, no referral will ever work. Even though they report all the referral, I'm quite skeptical about the numbers. I'd rather hear number people who became clean through it. But for some reason they don't publish that number. Wonder why?

It’s called cherry picking. Pick the numbers that make your cause look as favorable as possible and your opponent as bad as possible.

That's kind of my point. They can refer everyone who comes through the door, but if none of them ever go clean, what's the point of those referrals?

[steven lloyd]

As you know when it comes to “addiction” there is indeed different schools of thought on this topic. There are those who believe people do make a choice to shoot up drugs and there are others who believe otherwise. As you know I am big believer of choice and I believe people have choices to make and they make them accordingly. As such I also believe they should be held accountable for their choices in life. Leftists typically view this issue a fair bit differently then I do and that really is an ideological debate.

I’m a big believer in choice as well Al. As someone trained and practised in cognitive-behavioural interventions I fully appreciate how the power of choice is critical (both in choice of behaviour and choice of thought), but I am also still educated enough and experienced enough working in the real world to realize that making these choices is hardly as simplistic as choosing “A” or “B”. Some rightists enjoy this type of explanation because it is so simple and requires such little thought. It also allows for, and even encourages blaming, and while some find blaming so emotionally satisfying it does nothing to even address let alone start to solve these social issues that ultimately affect us all. We can make better, more productive choices Al.

The drug problem is in part a by-product of how our welfare system “works” and the fact is welfare is a dismal failure how it is currently instituted. In my view at least. I am certain the drug dealers of British Columbia are very happy with how our welfare system works.

The drug problem is in part a by-product of how our welfare system works ??? Please do tell. Can you read that back to yourself and not recognize how that might possibly be the most simplistic, and at the same time utterly erroneous explanation of drug addiction possible ? Is that how come some lawyers and doctors end up becoming drug addicts – because of our welfare system ? And yes, I am certain the drug dealers of British Columbia are very happy with how our welfare system works because we all know people on welfare easily receive enough in social assistance benefits to keep paying for and feed their $100 / day addiction.

[steven lloyd]

Well, people that defend Insite usually point out to Insite practice to refer clients to rehab and other services to get them off drugs. But when somebody comes in 400 times/year, no referral will ever work. Even though they report all the referral, I'm quite skeptical about the numbers. I'd rather hear number people who became clean through it. But for some reason they don't publish that number. Wonder why?

It’s called cherry picking. Pick the numbers that make your cause look as favorable as possible and your opponent as bad as possible.

That's kind of my point. They can refer everyone who comes through the door, but if none of them ever go clean, what's the point of those referrals?

It’s called cherry picking. Pick the numbers that make your cause look as favorable as possible and your opponent as bad as possible (hint: the "none of them ever go clean" part is false).

[Bagotricks]

Steven, The two are really separate issues and I think you did a disservice to the Insite issue by bringing a seperate subject into this thread in the first place.

You're right. Fair enough.

As for “justifying” the “disposal” of human lives that is an issue you would have to ask those that choose to dispose of their lives by shooting up with whatever drug of choice they decide to use.

The drug problem is in part a by-product of how our welfare system “works” and the fact is welfare is a dismal failure how it is currently instituted. In my view at least. I am certain the drug dealers of British Columbia are very happy with how our welfare system works.

The illegal drug market is bigger than oil and gas. Billions and billions of dollars.

I always get a kick when the understanding surfaces that downtown crackheads and "welfare bums" are the main consumers of illegal drugs and support the marketplace....at 500 bucks a month.

Most of the dealing that goes on downtown is to support habits, not turn profits.

Drug dealers are happy because professional, white and blue collar people from all walks of life buy their products from them, and the drug laws that our current right wing government embraces ensure that they wont be going out of business anytime soon.

[Captain Awesome]

Is this when we start discussing legalizing of all drugs?

[deadscape]

Right now the market's in the hands of the underground while the government cherry-picks at the easiest target, keeping the justice institution well fed. I might require that we change things and find some improvements. One guarantee, it ain't gonna happen under the watch of a right-wing party.

[nolanrh]

This is an economic argument for me. Is it cheaper to run this site than deal with the health problems down the road? If yes, then keep it. If not, we need to decide if the costs are worth the benefit.

[Bagotricks]

This is an economic argument for me. Is it cheaper to run this site than deal with the health problems down the road? If yes, then keep it. If not, we need to decide if the costs are worth the benefit.

All peer reviwed data, studies and reports have *all* concluded that Insite saves lives, stops the spread of disease and saves money.

The Harper government wants to close it on moral grounds - they could care less how many lives it saves - its Alberta votes they are saving.

The RCMP paid a group to produce a study that showed that it didnt work, but it backfired when the group found Insite infact was working, but the RCMP "asked" the group to skew their findings.

A whistleblower came out about it, exposed the RCMP reports and it was quickly swept under the rug.

[Glacier]

All peer reviwed data, studies and reports have *all* concluded that Insite saves lives, stops the spread of disease and saves money.

And increase the number of addicts.