Vatican officials defend Pope on abuse

[BVulgaris]

just wondering... anyone know about the Buddhists?

btw, the traditionalists tend to be the ones behind creating the heiarchys of power needed to commit such actions. I have found little evidence that a person of faith alone self corrupts. Infact delving into most of the world religions, they all tend towards peace, but the tendancy to emulate religious leaders and creation of religious laws over the original teachings and lessons have created much of the downfall of the faithful. This is especially seen in the religious offspring of Abraham.

[BVulgaris]

["Vatican says Pope can't be called to testify
Top legal official cites immunity as 'head of state'"
By Philip Pullella, ReutersApril 2, 2010]
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Vat ... story.html

"Pope Benedict, accused by victims' lawyers of being ultimately responsible for an alleged coverup of sexual abuse of children by priests, cannot be called to testify at any trial because he has immunity as a head of state, a top Vatican legal official said on Thursday."
...
"But the pope is protected by diplomatic immunity because more than 170 countries, including the United States, have diplomatic relations with the Vatican. They recognize it as a sovereign state and the pope as its sovereign head."

["Vatican deputy led cover-up in U.S. abuse case: Report"
Agence France-Presse April 5, 2010 3:20 PM]
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/wor ... story.html

"Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone — who was the deputy chief of the Church's moral watchdog when it was headed by the current pope — played the role of a "brake" in the affair, the Die Zeit weekly said."
...
"Documents provided by victims' lawyers and cited by the New York Times last month allegedly showed that Ratzinger did not respond to two letters on the issue from the archbishop of Wisconsin.

The Times also said a secret canonical trial authorized by Bertone was halted after Murphy wrote a pleading letter to the future pope.

The abuse claims dated from when Murphy worked at a school for the deaf from 1950 to 1974."

["Easter at Vatican marked by continuing questions over handling abuse"
By Cindy Wooden,
The Pilot, Posted: 4/5/2010]
http://www.thebostonpilot.com/article.asp?ID=11650
"The world's Catholics support the pope as well, he said, and will not let their faith be shaken by the "current petty gossip" surrounding the church, nor by the "ordeals that occasionally strike the church community.""

"In a homily focused on how Jesus broke the cycle of violence and victimizing others by taking on the world's sins and offering himself as a victim, Father Cantalamessa said he wanted to focus on all types of violence and not specifically "violence against children, concerning which even some members of clergy are wretchedly guilty."

In a passage of his homily remarking on the fact that the Christian Holy Week and the Jewish Passover coincided this year, he said the Jews "know from experience what it means to be victims of collective violence" and recognize when other groups are being attacked simply because of who they are.

He then read a portion of a letter he said he received from a Jewish friend, who wrote that he was following "with disgust" attacks against the church and the pope; the use of stereotypes; and using the wrongdoings of certain individuals as an excuse to paint a whole group with collective guilt, saying the current situation reminded the Jewish author of "the most shameful aspects of anti-Semitism."

Following harsh criticism for what some saw as comparing anti-Semitism and violence against the Jews to criticism of the church's handling of sex abuse, Father Cantalamessa told an Italian newspaper April 4 he was sincerely sorry if he offended any members of the Jewish community or any victims of sexual abuse. He added he realized that for centuries, Christian mobs would commemorate Jesus' death on Good Friday and then go out and attack Jews."

A friend of mine recently commented to me: Dont worry! They will come out smelling like a bed of roses with the residual smell of compost at their feet.

[Mr Danksworth]

"If you have a few hundred followers, and you let some of them molest children, they call you a cult leader. If you have a billion, they call you Pope." – Bill Maher

[grammafreddy]

I notice the Catholics are very quiet in this thread. Hopefully they are thinking about aiding and supporting child molesters and how their hands are covered in blood, right along with their pope's.

[BVulgaris]

I think catholics that truly listen to jesus's teachings probably feel the same way you do grammafreddy.... the problem is much like the US citizen's problem with their government committing war crimes and terrorist acts.... how do you hold the highest position your organizational structure responsible for their mistakes? I have an idea and there are numerous examples in history.... but this set of people alive in the world today do not have the guts that the french revolutionaries had in showing the world what the social leviathan of democracy could do!

The children of today have no concept of the kind of civil disobedience Gandhi so elegantly taught and actively participated in (a necessary requirement for a healthy democracy).

Even the outside observers required for this civil disobedience to work dont care any more... this is why Gandhi's less popular and violent teachings are being enacted... (in such a way Gandhi was the precursor to Malcolm X... read into gandhi .. its very interesting).

We shall see deniers and vigilantes spill blood on the ground till the whole world is "blind and toothless" and then we will talk of peace. But it will only erupt again to fertilize the ground with our blood if we do not take it seriously and pass on the light we have protected to the youth of tomorrow that will run the world when we are gone. (sorry for getting preachy... I'll end here).

[Mr Danksworth]

I notice the Catholics are very quiet in this thread. Hopefully they are thinking about aiding and supporting child molesters and how their hands are covered in blood, right along with their pope's.

[don_pepe]

I find it interesting that so far most reports of abuse comes from Europe or North America, but very little from Latin America where the vast majority of people are Catholic. I guess in those places people still have to much respect for the church to come forward with allegations.

[BVulgaris]

its because of the media... here is a wiki (sorry its wiki) compilation of molestation by the roman catholic church... note the section on south america (im assuming thats what you meant... theres others as well). The reason we dont hear of those is because it took electing a pedophiles accomplice into the pope's position for anyone to get off thier butts. I and many many others around the world have been reading this detritus of action for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... by_country

It really is time for change.... If we are worried about a religiously run country under islam, we must deal with the religiously run country under Roman Catholicism that refuses to correct its own actions......

(and dont think the catholic church hasnt committed the same crimes in god's name as Islam has... you have to be very ignorant of european and north american history not to see that).

[zzontar]

I'll bet those priests wish they could have been soldiers, then they could've raped way more and people would turn even more of a blind eye.

Note: There are many good soldiers out there, but the number of rapes in Vietnam alone would make those priests look like angels. I don't think the victims of either felt any different, it just blows me away that there were way more rapes and cover-ups in the wars, yet people just harp about the priests... both are equally guilty. How many of those rapists are still walking around free today?

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/H ... _Rape.html

The act of raping women is largely understood to be an inevitable consequence of war. As General George S. Patton predicted during World War II, "there would unquestionably be some raping."1 Rape and the mutilation of women's bodies are evidently part of the usual military fare in war. During the Vietnam war, rape was in fact an all too common occurrence, often described by GIs as SOP--standard operating procedure.2 "That's an everyday affair... you can nail just about everybody on that--at least once,"

The number of rape cases tried did not nearly reflect the rampancy of rape in Vietnam. The conviction rates were low and the sentences extremely light.

What underlies this thin expression and overly simplistic explanation and how can we move toward a fuller, more critical understanding of why the practice of rape was allowed to become "an everyday affair" during the Vietnam war?

In Vietnam, according to Jacqueline E. Lawson, "[r]aping a Vietnamese woman became a hallmark of the guerrilla phase of the war." In her article entitled, "'She's a pretty woman... for a gook': The Misogyny of the Vietnam War," Lawson explains that for "young American males intent on asserting their superiority, their potency, their manhood, (and by extension their country's)... raping a woman in a combat zone is something a man 'has' to do, 'needs' to do, has the 'right' to do.

[grammafreddy]

zzontar - that sounds like a whole 'nother thread.

[zzontar]

^^ If religion were involved, there would have been many threads on it already, but it isn't, and there aren't, so the lack of concern obviously isn't enough to start one. You just have to ask yourself why the concern is so great for one but not the other.

[grammafreddy]

Pssssttt ... that was a hint to start a thread ... see what you get for responses, maybe?

[bcbudrockz69]

I notice the Catholics are very quiet in this thread. Hopefully they are thinking .

well i wouldnt expect the catholics to be rowdy in this thread, i think most the catholic church members are just as mad about this as anyone else , but , its clear the ppl running it are not yet prepered to do the right thing and treat this for the crime it realy is, and i think it will keep making the church less and less credible.

mabey they need younger popes i dunno, or female lpoppettes

[bcbudrockz69]

I'll bet those priests wish they could have been soldiers, then they could've raped way more and people would turn even more of a blind eye.

Note: There are many good soldiers out there, but the number of rapes in Vietnam alone would make those priests look like angels. I don't think the victims of either felt any different, it just blows me away that there were way more rapes and cover-ups in the wars, yet people just harp about the priests... both are equally guilty. How many of those rapists are still walking around free today?

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/H ... _Rape.html

The act of raping women is largely understood to be an inevitable consequence of war. As General George S. Patton predicted during World War II, "there would unquestionably be some raping."1 Rape and the mutilation of women's bodies are evidently part of the usual military fare in war. During the Vietnam war, rape was in fact an all too common occurrence, often described by GIs as SOP--standard operating procedure.2 "That's an everyday affair... you can nail just about everybody on that--at least once,"

The number of rape cases tried did not nearly reflect the rampancy of rape in Vietnam. The conviction rates were low and the sentences extremely light.

What underlies this thin expression and overly simplistic explanation and how can we move toward a fuller, more critical understanding of why the practice of rape was allowed to become "an everyday affair" during the Vietnam war?

In Vietnam, according to Jacqueline E. Lawson, "[r]aping a Vietnamese woman became a hallmark of the guerrilla phase of the war." In her article entitled, "'She's a pretty woman... for a gook': The Misogyny of the Vietnam War," Lawson explains that for "young American males intent on asserting their superiority, their potency, their manhood, (and by extension their country's)... raping a woman in a combat zone is something a man 'has' to do, 'needs' to do, has the 'right' to do.

well that may be true, but the difference is wars are bad, churches are supposed to be good

[BVulgaris]

actually if you combine the question of catholicism in with military activities, i think you will find that the conduct of the church during times of warfare directed a visceral hatred and racism towards anyone not touting the holy cross into battle led to torture, rape of foreign savage women (i dont mean just in north america) etc. Infact just look at how the religious elite (and i dont mean the protestants) in the south in the US treated their slaves.

I have pointed to it in other threads, but the Stanford experiment showed that in any natural heiarchy of power, in this case a prison experiment, sexual acts will be used as an act of aggression to show dominance against the oppressed. You even find sexual dominance in the workplace at times. When you mix religion into these actions you start to see all sorts of excuses to commit horrible crimes of aggression. Just look at the superstitions behind how to cure aids in various areas of africa (sorry... forgot the exact area this was a problem in.... they basically raped babies in an attempt to some how cure themselves). But this by no means points towards ignorance of either case whether by the pedophile preists and the pope for the cover up (in one case for his own brother). The fact is that all instances are guilty under local and international laws and they should be upheld.

The pope not being compelled to stand as a witness in court to these crimes is very telling of what is happening in the world and how church and state powers are being enacted together. (i dont know why we worry about a religious muslim country when europe has a religious state that refuses to stand trial for massive crimes against children everywhere).

We need to remember the words of justice Jackson that presided over the nuremberg trials:
"If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them. And we are not prepared to lay down the rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us. We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well."

These are crimes being committed no matter who is committing them. We cannot point to others and claim "look but they're doing it too!" we must always hold ourselves as equals and apply the laws equally if not more strictly to ourselves. Only by example do we show the world that democracy and justice is taken seriously. To allow one amongst us to commit the crime, is to give the right to all. So if the pope goes untouched, unscathed, unscandalized, and unadulterated. We should only expect for others to follow in his footsteps as a global legal prescedent has been put forward... and the right to act will be given to all. If not, then we are hypocrites and will be viewed and treated as such.

In the case of priests however, i find this a grievous offense tantamount to a child councilor taking advantage of their patients while the parents are away. We would never allow such a councilor for children to continue their practice.

For wartime situations, we have created international laws on the subject of rape. You will find however there is not much public support for prosecuting our own boys for raping foreign women on the battle field. The US least of all in their continued visceral attacks on the local populations. The US is one of the greatest terrorist countries in the world and in recent history... by their definition.... but because we do not expect them to apply the basic law of universality we do not uphold the laws when it comes to the suffering of others by their own hand. I doubt the United States will ever prosecute George Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney etc. for their war crimes, and so they fit the definition of the hypocrite.

Anyways, this could go on for a while so I will stop there. Just think critically about the lessons of world war 2 and why the world desperately tried to create human rights organizations and global government bodies.

thank you for your time. I know its a bit long winded but..... ;p