Mormons

[Big ned]

WHy would glory scare a child? I guess you are one of these that is so blinded by hatred toward religion that you will go so far as to say there should be no consequences for poor decisions. Isn't that what is wrong with society today? Make sure every child gets a ribbon for participation.. don't hurt any feelings of little Timmy because it will damage his self esteem.

There are consequences for actions. You are free to repent for sins that you have committed in our belief system. See, the difference is, those who believe and follow our religion know what is required of them and they either choose to do it, or not. There are consequences for not doing it, whether it be a guilty conscience (heaven forbid) or loss of membership in the church for really big problems like adultery... it is everyone's choice. We don't have Jesus camps in the LDS church. We do have free agency and conseuqences. Society has consequences for many of the same "sins". You kill someone, you go to jail for life... Oh wait a minute... don't tell little Johnny that.... it might scare him!!!!!

The fact is that there are consequences for every action. Not heaven/hell, but if you believe in God, but you don't believe He will hold you accountable for you actions, then your God is not much of a God at all.... If you don't believe in God, I don't know why you would even want to have this discussion.

[grammafreddy]

Now, Ned, let's not get silly here. I don't hate religion(s), I just don't like what it does to people. It does not promote free thought and it certainly doesn't support critical thinking. All religions stifle any thinking process that does not support their own specific doctrine.

Sure the LDS has Jesus Camps - you just call them something different - like "missions" or something. Their purpose is to gain membership in your religion - perhaps under the guise of "helping those less fortunate". Your youth are schooled in the teachings of your church and they are sent to boost membership numbers around the world.

The Mormon-believers are not without their own controversies, having split into a number of different "cults" following the murder of Joseph Smith Jr in 1844.

http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/ ... ations.htm

After the Succession Crisis which followed Joseph Smith's murder in 1844, a number of competing hierarchies were organized that fall into the two main branches of the movement, sometimes called the "Prairie Saints" and the "Rocky Mountain Saints."

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the "Rocky Mountain Saint" branch of Mormonism.
* The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the "Prairie Saint" movement. Although generally referred to as "Mormons," they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
* Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
o Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
o Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS' decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
o Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
o Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
o The Church of Christ "With The Elijah Message," established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
o Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
o The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members
o The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- the "RLDS Church". It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
o United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
o The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter's liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical "The Restoration Advocate" six times a year.

It is hilarious that they all proclaim to be the "only legitimate Christian church". It is amazing to think that people will faithfully believe the "bend, fold, staple and mutilate" each religion does, not comprehending they themselves are "bent, folded, stapled and mutilated" just as their scriptures and the "Word of God" get when religious leaders need to gain greater control and power over their wayward followers. Their Word of God goes through so many man-made interpretations and transformations that you'd think somebody would question (hah!) how much of the original Word of God remained. When Mormons wanted statehood for Utah, it was convenient to toss out Joseph Smith Jr's polygamy permissiveness in order to achieve it - yet he was the supposed one who had written the Book of Mormon according to the Word of God. Go figure.

If I looked at "visionary golden plates delivered by the angel Moroni" and transcribed them from a language called Reformed Egyptian into English using a piece of brown rock from a field placed inside a white top hat, then called them "God's Word", you'd say I was nuts. You'd be right.

[cubafreak]

Excellent post GF!!!

[grammafreddy]

In some ways, I have no problem with polygamy. I think it work rather conveniently for a woman to have multiple husbands ... one to fix the plumbing, one to babysit when she went out with the girls, one to lift heavy loads, one to XXX when the mood hit, another for the yard work ... and all of them to bring home the bacon so a girl could enjoy the good material life. Yessir, would sure be a good thing sometimes.

The rub comes when religions are male-dominated with women always being the dominatee not the dominator. Then women are just chattel and bullied - and sold at 14 years old (and younger) to a much older man to be a baby-making machine in order to increase his dynasty. Then I have a problem with it.

Amazing how religious parents can sell their female children into slavery but kick their male offspring out into the world with not a penny or a decent education to their names because they are competition to the older males in their communal dynasty. They just drive them away from their homes, open the vehicle door and dump them into the dirt with just the clothes on their backs - and told never to come back again. Those who come back are rewarded with a severe beating and driven off again. Many of these Lost Boys commit suicide. So sad. So sad. How does their "god" love everybody equally then?

[Big ned]

Sure gramma freddy... you keep generalizing about religion without knowing what you are talking about. That is an intelligent way to debate.

Missions are not brain washing. Anyone who knows the teachings of Christ know that he asked his followers to "feed his sheep". That was the last thing that he asked his apostles to do before he was crucified. Any follower of Christ will discuss his teachings with anyone willing to listen. That is the key... you have every right to say...not interested and these 19 year old and older young men and women (hardly brainwashing children.. they are out teaching others, not being brain washed.) will move on to someone else.

I don't know if you have ever had and LDS missionary in your home, but they don't try to convince anyone. They teach doctrine and challenge you to pray about it. If you say you got no answer or no longer want to listen... they leave.

I have no control over splinter groups, just as the catholic church has no control over protestants. To say there are controversies regarding the LDS church because some wackos decided they wanted to leave and start their own religion is ridiculous. Please stop guessing at what our church does... little kids don't cry in their primary class when they are taught bible stories etc. Like I said before... we teach correct principles and let them govern themselves.. just like every one should do for every child they raise. At least we take the time to teach them right from wrong.

[coffeeFreak]

Having been under the "spell" of Christianity we were always warned to watch out for Mormons as it was a cult...Some who believe they are "Real" Christians also believe Catholics are not Christian either. These were middle of the road Pentecostals as well as Baptists who held these beliefs.

[grammafreddy]

Sure gramma freddy... you keep generalizing about religion without knowing what you are talking about. That is an intelligent way to debate.

Missions are not brain washing. Anyone who knows the teachings of Christ know that he asked his followers to "feed his sheep". That was the last thing that he asked his apostles to do before he was crucified. Any follower of Christ will discuss his teachings with anyone willing to listen. That is the key... you have every right to say...not interested and these 19 year old and older young men and women (hardly brainwashing children.. they are out teaching others, not being brain washed.) will move on to someone else.

I don't know if you have ever had and LDS missionary in your home, but they don't try to convince anyone. They teach doctrine and challenge you to pray about it. If you say you got no answer or no longer want to listen... they leave.

I have no control over splinter groups, just as the catholic church has no control over protestants. To say there are controversies regarding the LDS church because some wackos decided they wanted to leave and start their own religion is ridiculous. Please stop guessing at what our church does... little kids don't cry in their primary class when they are taught bible stories etc. Like I said before... we teach correct principles and let them govern themselves.. just like every one should do for every child they raise. At least we take the time to teach them right from wrong.

At least I have the ability to debate instead of having been brainwashed by one religion to practice hate, ridicule and intolerance for other faiths. No church encourages their followers to study independently other religions, but they may teach about them with a definite slanted bias against them to keep the people in line.

It is interesting you call the practitioners of Morman Fundamentalism "wackos" when they are following the word and plural-marriage ways of your esteemed "prophet", Joseph Smith Jr, who wrote your Book of Mormon from the Golden Plates given to him by an angel of God. Your Mr Smith did not limit his affections to just one woman : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... _Smith,_Jr. and yet, when it became desirable for the LDS under Brigham Young (who was also the Governor of Utah Territory) to push the American government to form the State of Deseret, the US government balked due to Brigham Young's LDS polygamist policies, replaced him with a new governor and created the State of Utah instead. Thus started the Utah War. Trying to protect his empire, 120 immigrants from Arkansas (except for the children who the Mormons decided to care for - *ahem*) were attacked by the Morman militia, which is called the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Nice of them to love everybody equally, I'd say. Ah, the power and greed of Brigham Young, who was legendary for his many wives and resultant offspring. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Br ... %27s_wives and http://www.cc.utah.edu/~jay/Brigham_You ... Young.html

Brigham Young said you are damned if you deny polygamy.
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266). Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269).

Oh-oh, there's a lot of modern day Mormons who will be damned. This is the branch of Mormon Church you believe in, right, Ned? Just checking. Tell me if I'm wrong, okay?

Brigham Young makes great quotes. I am especially fond of this one:

Brigham Young said that God the Father and Mary 'do it.'
"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 218). "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood -- was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115). Note: the late Bruce McConkie who was a member of the First Council of the Seventy stated "There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events..." (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742).

Wow - and outside of the sanctity of marriage, too! Then the good used Mary got handed off to her poor husband Joseph who got told a tale of immaculate conception. Oh, wait, was that a different religion? Do you think someone in the Mormon Church told Joseph the truth? So, it's okay to have sex with a virgin without marrying her, according to this. She better not get "with child", though, because not every man is as dumb as old Joseph. The religions don't come down on men nearly as much as they do women for playing around outside of marriage. Most religions will teach women to remain "pure" for their future husbands. Religions like marriage - they invented it - to control women's reproductive organs and to keep them from lying with every dog in the village, so to speak. Gotta protect those children and keep them close to the fold.

I am having great difficulty taking all this seriously. Sorry, Ned. No matter how you wish to spin it, your church really is no different from any other. You encourage women to have many children in order to increase your numbers under the flag of Morman brainwashing from an early age. Then your church sends them out to "teach doctrine" to the unwashed masses in hopes somebody will be gullible enough to convert. It all boils down to the same. Their job is to gain numbers who believe in Joseph Smith Jr's golden plate version of god's word (delivered by an angel, of course - and without any witnesses, natch). Like I said, power and greed. And a whole bunch of sheeples teaching the "rights and wrongs" of your religion's branch - which has been conveniently altered from the original "transcription" of your original "prophet" or whatever. Yeah right.

Sin's okay - as long as you keep repenting for it. Week after week someone can commit a "sin" and get forgiven for it. What good does that do? It allows them to keep on "sinning", doesn't it? How many repeat sins can one have before there's no more repenting allowed and the church condemns one to a "lesser glory/hell" forever?

[Big ned]

You obviously don't know the definition of Damned nor of Repentance. Get back to me when you have learned those definitions and then we can have an intelligent conversation.

You are wrong about one religion not teaching about another. I attended a church sponsored university (BYU) and took a course in world religions that was very neutral and presented beliefs in a non critical way. Simply statements of belief.

[grammafreddy]

You obviously don't know the definition of Damned nor of Repentance. Get back to me when you have learned those definitions and then we can have an intelligent conversation.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/damned

Main Entry: damn
Pronunciation: \ˈdam\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): damned; damn·ing \ˈda-miŋ\
Etymology: Middle English dampnen, from Anglo-French dampner, from Latin damnare, from damnum damage, loss, fine
Date: 13th century

transitive verb 1 : to condemn to a punishment or fate; especially : to condemn to hell
2 a : to condemn vigorously and often irascibly for some real or fancied fault or defect <damned the storm for their delay> b : to condemn as a failure by public criticism
3 : to bring ruin on
4 : to swear at : curse —often used to express annoyance, disgust, or surprise <damn him, he should have been careful> <I'll be damned>intransitive verb : curse, swear

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repent

Main Entry: re·pent
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈpent\
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French repentir, from Medieval Latin repoenitēre, from Latin re- + Late Latin poenitēre to feel regret, alteration of Latin paenitēre — more at penitent
Date: 14th century

intransitive verb 1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mindtransitive verb 1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

— re·pent·er nou

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/repentance

Main Entry: re·pen·tance
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈpen-tən(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

: the action or process of repenting especially for misdeeds or moral shortcomings
synonyms see penitence

Or how about all these choices .... (too long to c&p)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance

and ... (shorter)

Repentance

Repentance is one of the first principles of the gospel and is essential to our temporal and eternal happiness. It is much more than just acknowledging wrongdoings. It is a change of mind and heart that gives us a fresh view about God, about ourselves, and about the world. It includes turning away from sin and turning to God for forgiveness. It is motivated by love for God and the sincere desire to obey His commandments.

Are any of those right?

You are wrong about one religion not teaching about another. I attended a church sponsored university (BYU) and took a course in world religions that was very neutral and presented beliefs in a non critical way. Simply statements of belief.

Now that you have all this knowledge, do you teach it to your children so they can also make informed decisions about which god they want to believe in? Or do you first teach them that the LDS way (and your version of it) is the only "real" god and the only "right" way to serve him? Do you then send these more adult (but not totally) children out as missionaries to further your church's reaches and "teach" other people (who may already have their own religion) that their way is not going to get them into Heaven (or whatever) and they must accept the LDS beliefs in order to ensure acceptance into the greatest glory (heaven or whatever)?

I am very disappointed you do not find this conversation intelligent, but I suspect the only "real intelligence" you would find acceptable would be one where I agreed with you 100%. Not gonna happen.

[Big ned]

I don't find it intelligent because of the gross generalizations that anti religion people bring to the table.

To damn something is to stop it's progression. A person who sins and doesn't completely repent of it has damned themselves because "no unclean thing can enter into God's presence". Now in most churchs, if you are not in God's presence, you go to hell. Not in the LDS religion... again, you are given a degree of glory that is much better than what we endure on this earth. There is no teachinhg children about burning in hell for eternity as a way of scaring them... doesn't happen in the LDS church.

Also, repentance (as I hope you learned by looking in the dictionary) means you have turned away from the sin and don't repeat it.... If you return to the sin, your repentance is not complete... Therefore, saying that religious people feel pious by repenting over and over again for the same sin may be true in some instances (such as paying in advance for sins.... etc) In the LDS church, repentance does mean that the sin is not repeated.

[grammafreddy]

I'll ask this again ...

Now that you have all this knowledge, do you teach it to your children so they can also make informed decisions about which god they want to believe in? Or do you first teach them that the LDS way (and your version of it) is the only "real" god and the only "right" way to serve him? Do you then send these more adult (but not totally) children out as missionaries to further your church's reaches and "teach" other people (who may already have their own religion) that their way is not going to get them into Heaven (or whatever) and they must accept the LDS beliefs in order to ensure acceptance into the greatest glory (heaven or whatever)?

[cubafreak]

chidren are baptized as young as 8 years old.In my opinion 8 is too young to be making such a big decision...(or is it being made for them?)

[Big ned]

Of course we teach them our doctrine... What doctrine do you teach your grandchildren? Avoid religion at all costs? Everyone has their bias and will teach what they believe... that is far short of the brain washing you posted. don't try to equate the two because there is no comparison. There are plenty of kids that grow up and leave religious organizations just as there are plenty of adults who realize their parents didn't fulfill their spiritual needs and join religious organizations.

I posted that I don't agree with the Jesus camps and that my church has no such thing. What more do you want?

Of course if you are anti religion you will think that 40 is too young to baptize. 8 is considered the age of accountability where a person is accoutable for their actions and sins (according to LDS doctrine). It is better than most churchs that baptize at infancy when the child is not accountable and has not sinned... pick your poison my atheist friends.

[cubafreak]

I personally think that making a decision about baptism at the age of 8 is wrong.I don't think a child of that age could take such a big step seriously.I remember growing up in the church and I was not allowed to attend the gold and green ball until I was 14 (because you are not allowed to dance until you are 14 years old ) but yet,I would have been allowed to choose baptism at a younger age......doesn't sit well with me.And this opinion, by the way,does not make me an atheist.I would think that with your knowledge, and the teachings of your church,that this would tell you that the people debating on this forum are learning things that maybe they didn't know and according to your beliefs this should be a great way to share your teachings.Some of your posts come off with some sarcasm, to me that is one great big turn off.

[Big ned]

cubafreak, I did not call you an atheist... sorry you took it that way. Most of the people that respond to my posts are atheist or bashing organized religion. Let me point out a couple of errors in your post though. The church does not say you can't dance before 14... they do not sponsor dances before 14... there is nothing about dancing before 14.

Again, in our doctrine, the age of accountability has been revealed as 8 years old. That means that a child knows right from wrong and is capable of sin. Baptism doesn't lock them into being a church member if they choose later to not follow the LDS gospel. I've know children and parents in the church that have said " we're not ready for that" and no one forces anyone to baptize their children.

I always respond to questions civilly if they are asked civilly. If they are asked in a mocking way (which they usually are in this forum) they will be treated in the manner in which they are asked.