Are atheists/agnostics more moral than Christians?

[my2rotties]

I would almost think John Right is actually that pastor David of whatchamacallhim... same self righteous and judgmental style.

[Tumult]

... I feel that you have a distorted view of what being a Christian is all about. It's not a bunch of rules that must be obeyed. You don't have to accumulate enough spiritual points so you can earn a free pass to paradise when you die! That is completely wrong. At it's basic core is this one simple statement;

John 3:16 (New International Version)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

There is no caveat, no tricks or further rules. Just believe in him, that's it and have eternal life! Not too complicated is it? Don't get hung on all the noise out there about what you can and can't do.

You can still enjoy your life you know, I do.

I think that's a major problem with Christianity, they have focused on believing in Jesus for eternal life and ditched "the message from the beginning" and the commandment of which there is none greater...If they actually heeded the message and followed the commandment then there would be no question as to who is more "moral".

[steven lloyd]

... I respect others and try not to judge and I certainly do not cast people out for being different or being born a particular way...

Then you’re doing better than many – Christians and atheists alike. Neither group has a monopoly on ignorance and bigotry. Each group contains at least a few.

[steven lloyd]

- if society makes a transition from thought and reason to blind faith - we're in trouble.

Good point – and this applies as much to ideological thinking (political) as it does to religious dogma. However, not everything is knowable.

I agree that rational thought and critical analysis should prevail over blind acceptance, but what is to be done when dealing with concepts that are largely unquantifiable? Heaven? God? At best we can come up with a working theory, but absolute knowledge remains unattainable.

[steven lloyd]

I'm going to sign off until the next time I feel like beating up on some atheists.

The irony as the self-demonstrated buffoon ( "what's an atheist ?" ) crawls away licking his fragile ego-wounds softly whimpering “I win”.

[Piecemaker]

Fluffy, Ive found your comments strikingly similar to my views. In what context do you view our place (humans and earth) in the universe?

Not an easy question to answer WhatThe, so much of my beliefs are based in feelings that are somewhat ethereal and fleeting that it's hard to get them into words. I'm comfortable with the concept of a higher power, although the thought of a conscious, all-powerful entity doesn't sit easily with me. The wizened old sage with the flowing white beard and the chorus of angles? Nope. I have searched widely and managed to cobble together something that is constantly under revision as I learn. Like life in general, my belief system is a work in progress.
I was raised in a rigid religious belief system with "God", and quite content in that faith as I became a parent in the early '80s. It came as a devastating blow while attempting to strengthen my faith through study and research, so I could better guide my children, to realize I could not in good conscience continue in that church. What has followed for me since is a spiritual journey, much like fluffy describes. I also think spiritual growth is meant to be a life-long process rather than a stagnant place where one is "right" and all others' beliefs are "wrong".

Christianity has much to offer in the area of personal and inter-personal behavior. Being true to God and to one's self is a key in any system. It's unfortunate that this simple concept seems to be utterly incomprehensible to many Christians, as evidenced in this very thread. Buddhism and other eastern philosophies have lots to offer, as do some of the New Age thoughts like Gaia theory.
There were, and continue to be, many moral and kind people in the church that I used to belong to. I know of many other people from various church and with others with non-religious belief systems that I could say the same about. I don't think Christianity is any more or less likely to be a factor in morality than anything else. Most religious and non-religious value systems have as a core value to be kind others. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Unfortunately there were, and continue to be, many "John Rights" in the church I used to belong to as well as in other churches, and outside organized religion, that call themselves "Christians". Whether one believes in a higher power or not, one can conduct themselves with kindness and integrity. However, belief in God does not automatically mean morality follows. John Right's rigid thinking and mocking of those that do not share his beliefs and the poking fun at their on-line names is not conduct of someone growing spiritually. No one of us has all the answers and perhaps that is how it is meant to be.

I don't think we are meant, or even capable, of understanding the true nature of God, but it's enough for me to know that there is something more than just me, and that I can tap into that force for help and direction, even just some simple peace of mind. Sounds a little Obiwan-Kenobi-ish I know, but it's working for me.

[36Drew]

While doing some reading, I came across this:

Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.

-- Richard Carrier

Source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... eaven.html

[my2rotties]

After doing some reading, I came across this:

Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.

-- Richard Carrier

Source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... eaven.html

This s exceptional, I love it.

[UnknownResident]

To compare morality between the two is pointless, on a person to person level sometimes you'll find the Christian to be a better person, and other times it'll be the atheist. No one can say your sense of right and wrong comes from religion (or I hope not). To blindly follow, a book, or leaders in the religious community, or whoever without thinking about what your doing is ridiculous. Everyone, deep down, thinks for themselves, or a healthy individual does, Christian or not. Unless you believe that Christians are brainwashed into following the teachings blindly. But they aren't, otherwise they'd be doing some of the crazy (%#& in the old testament. So they think for themselves. Morality comes from your environment, and yourself, it's not a religious debate.

That being said, I'm an atheist, I believe we are just a speck out in space, with no greater being watching over us. I find there's too much hate in the world for there to be an Almighty looking out for us. Also I'm a rational/logical thinker, and the concept is far to bizarre for me to even comprehend. However, I am willing to admit that my inability to believe it could be a flaw, who knows.

[WhatThe]

. ... I find there's too much hate in the world for there to be an Almighty looking out for us. ...

I've often heard this before. Hate is not necessarily unique to humans, it does exist in the animal kingdom (coincidently of which we are part) which suggests that it's just the natural order of things. The more I examine other animals the more I see our complex behaviours being mirrored by them in their everyday behaviour. Albeit on a less complex level.

[JLives]

What would be an example of hate in the animal kingdom?

[mtnman1]

What would be an example of hate in the animal kingdom?

Most wild animals hate humans.

[my2rotties]

What would be an example of hate in the animal kingdom?

Most wild animals hate humans.

Can you blame them?

[steven lloyd]

What would be an example of hate in the animal kingdom?

Most wild animals hate humans.

I think more accurately, most wild animals fear humans.

[mtnman1]

What would be an example of hate in the animal kingdom?

Most wild animals hate humans.

I think more accurately, most wild animals fear humans.

They are smarter than we give them credit for. A wild animal is pretty predictable when it comes to their reactions to a particular situation. Humans are well known for their unpredictability. Some have overcome their "flight or fight". When they should be taking flight, they choose fight.