Kelowna mud bogging and outdoor 4x4ing annual events

[cv23]

anyways I to am done with this clown and topic.[/color]

Best thing that could have happened to the "sport" and the thread

[Mack of Trades]

What you may or may not know is many people who are for and against motorized vehicle access in the back country on this forum USE it for helping restore sites that have been damaged. Not all of us sit our patoots on our high computer chair and nag incessently about things that have nothing to do with us. This forum at least allows us to digitally duke it out over issues, but I know I have used Castanet in the past to put on events that ends up mostly being 4x4 volunteer groups that come out and help me lug MUCH garbage out of the backcountry and me being one of the only hikers there. That says a lot for those responsible TREAD LIGHTLY individuals out there. They do care. We just don't give credit where it is due I feel.

i truly value the efforts alot of people make to cleaning up the back country and places like postil bog pits from the garbage litterd around ...its a great way to get together clean up the enviroment and realize what a beauty of a place we live in ....now that being said how awsomely respectful that is for people in our comunity to do .....think this way myself included on some cleanup events .....we are there cleaning up after the mess and damage has been done ....the garbage is already there the habitat is already destroyed ....we are cleaning up after people that make the mess and they come back and just do it all over again a never ending cycle

in short what i am gettig at is all that effort spent cleaning up ...if the numbers were to multiply and we put effort towards the prevention of the mess the prevention of the damage ,,,,,if we could go up there to clean and have of half the mess to clean because of the events and such that are needed here ...would that not make a difference, we are still always gonna have damage we are still always gonna have garbage and we are still always gonna have great people to go up there and clean it up ....but what if that damage and mess could be decreased would that not be a possitive step towards keeping our outbacks in a healthyer condition ....in my belief having events and such places to do them would concentrate the damage and mess to one area ....so groups such as yours or citizens such as myself could find a sense of satifaction knowing that we have made a difference in preventing a percentage of the wide spread damage to begin with.....

[Rwede]

I don’t have a problem with them making it law to keep most places off bounds to people who want to do nothing but rip up a marshland or drive thru a water shed so on, but without them providing a spot for the people who like the sport of off roading, or for the people who haven’t even tried it yet for the reason of not even being old enough to drive, the damage will continue

Who is this mysterious "them?" Shouldn't the "them" be you, the ones who want to indulge in this?

You're implying that "them" must be me and the rest of BC's taxpayers. Why can't you take responsibility for your own actions and your own entertainment, and not thrust it upon me? If you want a place to mudbog, go buy that place and build a mudbog, yourselves. Don't expect "them" to do it for you.

[Mack of Trades]

I don’t have a problem with them making it law to keep most places off bounds to people who want to do nothing but rip up a marshland or drive thru a water shed so on, but without them providing a spot for the people who like the sport of off roading, or for the people who haven’t even tried it yet for the reason of not even being old enough to drive, the damage will continue

Who is this mysterious "them?" Shouldn't the "them" be you, the ones who want to indulge in this?

You're implying that "them" must be me and the rest of BC's taxpayers. Why can't you take responsibility for your own actions and your own entertainment, and not thrust it upon me? If you want a place to mudbog, go buy that place and build a mudbog, yourselves. Don't expect "them" to do it for you.

"them" would be the government the legislation makers ,btw sorry for not putting that in there .....so i guess thats where you got the idea me implying "them" must mean you and the rest of US bc taxpayers ;) ...im happy you have found a stance speaking for every single bc taxpayer out there good on ya my friend .running for politics anytime soon?........ well guess what ? us offroaders we pay taxes and guess what else ,,,,,and alot of us dont need paved roads (wink wink ) so why are all us tax payers paying for your roads ....do you get the point yet ? why must you thrust your paved roads upon some of us offroaders .... if you want roads paved why dont you go out there yourself and pave them and not expect all of us bc taxpayers to pay for them think of the money to be saved if we all drove on dirt roads wow huge saveing to be put elsewhere into the enviroment ....

now enuf of that said we dont expect anyone to build mud bogs or 4x4 trails or rocks to climb its obvious there are people already doing it in the bush and 2ndly how much would it cost for our government to set aside a plot of land for events ? ( im not sure myself ) ...and a plot of land for 4x4 trails ,the land is alreay there , not that, that is what is being ask for in here. i dont belive anyone has ever expected a hand out , but there is people within our sport who have many times said they pack out more then they pack in .they clean up after them and others ... i think you really need to look at the bigger picture of what is trying to be done in this topic ......and that is to prevent the destruction of our outback do to ignorance (lack of knowlage) like what your proving to bring forth in here be a solution to the problam not just someone who feels they can speak for every other taxpayer in bc ....so next time you drive on your nice paved roads remember this not all of US bc taxpayers (yes including the offroaders including the tree huggers and including you) need paved roads but we still pay for your luxery to have them ;) good day fellow BC taxpayer...........im no genius nor do i claim to be one ...i just have a simple idea as shared with others from a wide variaty of people we would like events so we shall work towards having them

[Mack of Trades]

[huntress]

Wow! I can not believe how ignorant some people can be and how off topic this form has gone.
In keeping with the flow of this form Point Dexter fyi I have been involved in hunting for 12 years now and DO NOT have a beer belly or look like death warmed over. Generalizing hunters this way is like saying all business men are crooks. Extremely ignorant. If the fast food chains and super markets all closed down could you support yourself, your family? I could. I can guarantee you that your grandparent/great grandparent were out hunting for their meals. People now have just become lazy and dependent on other to put food in front of them. Hunting is also a sport and very much needed to control the animal population. I grew up on the farm and have seen the destruction the deer can do to crops. But yes let all stop hunting and especially bear, then soon enough we will be able to see the bears move in, larger number, to urban areas to find food, it would be so great… then we can all take picture of the bears eating out of our garbage’s… how beautiful those picture would be. LOL.

RichardWede wow you are my hero, lol. Seriously would it be so bad to take your self off your podium and consider other peoples opinions? There are people that like to take a risk, enjoy taking full advantage of what BC has to offer. What other purpose does mud have if not to drive through it? Were you the hall monitor in school?

Now back on the actual topic… Some of you are not understanding what this form is actually about, so let me break it down for you how I understand it plus a little input from me. Mack let me know if I am the one who doesn’t understand what this form is actually about.

~There are mud boggers/4X4’s around that are destroying/polluting the area with not just the destruction of the land but with their garbage they leave behind. This is not going to stop.
~There need to be an organized event/area so people who enjoy this sport can participate in it in a controlled environment. If there is a designated area for the mud boggers/4X4’s to go there will be less destruction of other areas. People can enjoy this sport and learn to respect the environment.
~People put a lot of time, work and money into building up their off road vehicles why can they not use them? Bogging/4X4 is a hobby and sport for may people. Why are people so against letting other enjoy their hobbies, just because they don’t understand them or enjoy them?
~The bogging trucks rip up grass, trees, etc. in what a 2 acre parcel? Logging destroys miles and miles of land with the equipment working. Mining leaves behind massive amounts of debris and pollution. We should ban logging and mining…..

Sum it up:
Designated controlled area for this sport=less destruction and pollution of other areas.

If bogging/4X4 is so destructive to the water sheds and land, has anyone seen the pollution and garbage left behind by boaters? I have. Why don’t we ban all boats on the water.
If we can’t utilize the bush why not take away the lakes too? Best idea yet why don’t we all just turn of our TV’s and videos game grab some fast food and spend our day inside so we don’t disturb others or the environment.

Well this is my opinion and veiw on things, let see how many people can accept it.

[Rwede]

I don’t have a problem with them making it law to keep most places off bounds to people who want to do nothing but rip up a marshland or drive thru a water shed so on, but without them providing a spot for the people who like the sport of off roading, or for the people who haven’t even tried it yet for the reason of not even being old enough to drive, the damage will continue

Who is this mysterious "them?" Shouldn't the "them" be you, the ones who want to indulge in this?

You're implying that "them" must be me and the rest of BC's taxpayers. Why can't you take responsibility for your own actions and your own entertainment, and not thrust it upon me? If you want a place to mudbog, go buy that place and build a mudbog, yourselves. Don't expect "them" to do it for you.

"them" would be the government the legislation makers ,btw sorry for not putting that in there .....so i guess thats where you got the idea me implying "them" must mean you and the rest of US bc taxpayers ;) ...im happy you have found a stance speaking for every single bc taxpayer out there good on ya my friend .running for politics anytime soon?........ well guess what ? us offroaders we pay taxes and guess what else ,,,,,and alot of us dont need paved roads (wink wink ) so why are all us tax payers paying for your roads ....do you get the point yet ? why must you thrust your paved roads upon some of us offroaders .... if you want roads paved why dont you go out there yourself and pave them and not expect all of us bc taxpayers to pay for them think of the money to be saved if we all drove on dirt roads wow huge saveing to be put elsewhere into the enviroment ....

now enuf of that said we dont expect anyone to build mud bogs or 4x4 trails or rocks to climb its obvious there are people already doing it in the bush and 2ndly how much would it cost for our government to set aside a plot of land for events ? ( im not sure myself ) ...and a plot of land for 4x4 trails ,the land is alreay there , not that, that is what is being ask for in here. i dont belive anyone has ever expected a hand out , but there is people within our sport who have many times said they pack out more then they pack in .they clean up after them and others ... i think you really need to look at the bigger picture of what is trying to be done in this topic ......and that is to prevent the destruction of our outback do to ignorance (lack of knowlage) like what your proving to bring forth in here be a solution to the problam not just someone who feels they can speak for every other taxpayer in bc ....so next time you drive on your nice paved roads remember this not all of US bc taxpayers (yes including the offroaders including the tree huggers and including you) need paved roads but we still pay for your luxery to have them ;) good day fellow BC taxpayer...........im no genius nor do i claim to be one ...i just have a simple idea as shared with others from a wide variaty of people we would like events so we shall work towards having them

Although it's rather senseless, circular logic you're using to justify your position, your claim that you only drive offroad but are paying for paved roads is your own fault. Why aren't you running purple gas to avoid road taxes? The out is there for you, so it's your own fault if you're not taking advantage of the tax break. However, you better be trailering your bogger to the hills because you can't run it on the paved highway to get to the backroads.

If you want to hold events, find your own land and build an offroad park. There's no "free land" available from the government. A Crown lease will cost you 3% of the land value in annual rents plus full on property taxes, and you'd still have to restore the site to 100% natural state at the end of the lease, which would cost many thousands of dollars.

From your comments, you haven't even looked into the costs and ramifications of what you're asking for.

[Graham Adder]

Dick...you like to hunt...you like to spend your time in OUR woods killing OUR animals.
You are allowed to use the back country for your 'sport' and annually there are piles of garbage and crap left behind by hunters in their temporary camps.

I am tossing in a bit of devils advo here, clearly...but my point is that you being a frequent user of the back country should understand there are others that wish to use it for their recreation and sport as well. They also may leave behind cut green stumps, garbage and torn up sites, but what really makes them worse than others overall.

I've seen weekend campers leave worse messes than 4x4 enthusiasts. I've seen hunting camps left in a shambles with animal parts left on the picnic table and pit toilets left unfilled...torn tarps hanging about draped over make shift frames and hanging racks with bloody rope still dangling.

You, Dick, speak as though your passion for the outdoors is the only one worthy of support. Personally I am not in support of what you do for pleasure and see no justifiable reason for killing for pleasure this day in age. There are other more suitable ways to 'cull' and there are better means to fetch our food supply from natural sources rather than walking around with a hard on for killing.

If you're gonna talk the talk...then walk the walk.
Close down the bush to hunters as well. They too leave huge messes and tear up the environment.
I've seen it first hand every year I have lived here.

Fracking hunters are all the same.
Ban them and their sport of killing my animals in my woods.

[Mack of Trades]

I don’t have a problem with them making it law to keep most places off bounds to people who want to do nothing but rip up a marshland or drive thru a water shed so on, but without them providing a spot for the people who like the sport of off roading, or for the people who haven’t even tried it yet for the reason of not even being old enough to drive, the damage will continue

Who is this mysterious "them?" Shouldn't the "them" be you, the ones who want to indulge in this?

You're implying that "them" must be me and the rest of BC's taxpayers. Why can't you take responsibility for your own actions and your own entertainment, and not thrust it upon me? If you want a place to mudbog, go buy that place and build a mudbog, yourselves. Don't expect "them" to do it for you.

"them" would be the government the legislation makers ,btw sorry for not putting that in there .....so i guess thats where you got the idea me implying "them" must mean you and the rest of US bc taxpayers ;) ...im happy you have found a stance speaking for every single bc taxpayer out there good on ya my friend .running for politics anytime soon?........ well guess what ? us offroaders we pay taxes and guess what else ,,,,,and alot of us dont need paved roads (wink wink ) so why are all us tax payers paying for your roads ....do you get the point yet ? why must you thrust your paved roads upon some of us offroaders .... if you want roads paved why dont you go out there yourself and pave them and not expect all of us bc taxpayers to pay for them think of the money to be saved if we all drove on dirt roads wow huge saveing to be put elsewhere into the enviroment ....

now enuf of that said we dont expect anyone to build mud bogs or 4x4 trails or rocks to climb its obvious there are people already doing it in the bush and 2ndly how much would it cost for our government to set aside a plot of land for events ? ( im not sure myself ) ...and a plot of land for 4x4 trails ,the land is alreay there , not that, that is what is being ask for in here. i dont belive anyone has ever expected a hand out , but there is people within our sport who have many times said they pack out more then they pack in .they clean up after them and others ... i think you really need to look at the bigger picture of what is trying to be done in this topic ......and that is to prevent the destruction of our outback do to ignorance (lack of knowlage) like what your proving to bring forth in here be a solution to the problam not just someone who feels they can speak for every other taxpayer in bc ....so next time you drive on your nice paved roads remember this not all of US bc taxpayers (yes including the offroaders including the tree huggers and including you) need paved roads but we still pay for your luxery to have them ;) good day fellow BC taxpayer...........im no genius nor do i claim to be one ...i just have a simple idea as shared with others from a wide variaty of people we would like events so we shall work towards having them

Although it's rather senseless, circular logic you're using to justify your position, your claim that you only drive offroad but are paying for paved roads is your own fault. Why aren't you running purple gas to avoid road taxes? The out is there for you, so it's your own fault if you're not taking advantage of the tax break. However, you better be trailering your bogger to the hills because you can't run it on the paved highway to get to the backroads.

If you want to hold events, find your own land and build an offroad park. There's no "free land" available from the government. A Crown lease will cost you 3% of the land value in annual rents plus full on property taxes, and you'd still have to restore the site to 100% natural state at the end of the lease, which would cost many thousands of dollars.

From your comments, you haven't even looked into the costs and ramifications of what you're asking for.

my claim is not that i only drive off road nor do i claim that anyone in the off-roading sport just drive off roads....i do not have a huge truck with tires that are not street legal so i do not have to haul it around from point a to point b, and to be a off-roading enthusiast you do not need a huge truck that is not street legal.....and in reality i do not need paved roads to drive anywhere if i go to the store i do not require a paved road i would be just as happy driving on dirt road ...

You seem like a knowledgeable person and i dare not call you down for that... so maybe one day you can put your knowledge and effort towards a solution to keeping the back country in a healthy condition because simply saying off-roading enthusiast should not be allowed out in the backcountry well it’ll never work it’ll just keep getting worse and worse ....anddddddd worse ,,,people need a place to go or they will keep on 4x4ing in the backcountry if place were set aside for 4x4trails and pits were set aside for people that bog then the damage like i said before could very possibly be limited to certain area's ...as for a garbage mess well enough people have stated they clean up

Organizing events such as the ones that have been previously posted in here are nothing but a positive move for our community and surrounding community’s to become part of rather than ignore or to continue watching things get worse...

And on another note possibly you could see this topic as part of it truly is.....and that is getting people together to perhaps maybe one day in the following years find a piece of property to have such events on ....and to petition for a spot where there are trails to climb ...and possibly have a user fee for those people to enjoy those sport ...like an off-roading license/permit renewed yearly, to take an educational course of how to treat the environment while you’re enjoying it.....
none of this can be accomplished overnight it will take a lot of work and people coming together and that is exactly what this topic is the beginning of .....Thanks for your reply’s people

Once we get enough people in the Facebook group i was thinking of planning an event for this summer a meet up somewhere ....any idea's paste them in the Facebook group would be appreciated.... start the day off perhaps in a parking lot somewhere in town to set up food donations for the community food banks and a time to discuss and share with each other and others of what is truly needed for our towns ,,,,,,,, maybe we can call it a park and shop event as everyone is entitled to park and shop without going to city hall for a permit then off to a place to have a tail gait bbq and some cold pepsi's just an idea for a first meet up anyways appreciate all the reply’s look forward to continuing the topic

[cv23]

Let's summarize;
Two things that are becoming very obvious in this thread are that because some irresponsible individuals have previously caused damage, in various ways, to small portions of the back country others feel that because of this they too are in some way entitled to do likewise and because some damage has already been done some people feel this in some way makes it alright for them to do even more damage.

Really a pretty sad commentary on what our society has come to isn't it?

[Mack of Trades]

Two things that are becoming very obvious in this thread is that because some irresponsible individuals have previously caused damage, in various ways, to small portions of the back country others feel that they are in some way entitled to do likewise and because some damage has already been done others feel it in some way this makes it alright for them to do even more damage.

Pretty sad commentary on what our society has come to isn't it?

In many different aspects it is sad to what society has become, in ways of violence, environmental impact, the common curtisy to hold a door open for another person, sad in many ways...

society is society it’s the pattern of domino's falling and something needs to change in many area's ...as for this topic it is a step being taking to have a positive effect on the on the increasing damage to our outback’s by the people that are responsible for the damage.

but as you’ve stated its sad what society has come to and the damage will continue until good people like a lot of the off roaders are in this forum, it takes them standing up and creating solutions and that is exactly what is being asked for solutions, idea’s for the better of the environment, and the people who want to enjoy it in many different ways. this isn’t about someone’s personal opinion about what off-road enthusiasts are , it’s about how to prevent the irresponsible ignorant people from continuing to damage and destroy our outback’s , there is a lot to learn from the responsible people who are part of this sport that do take care of our outback’s while enjoying the sport , as the sport will continue. These people have knowledge to share to people that don’t know about the proper educate of taking care of the backcountry while you’re enjoying it

perhaps another idea would be to taking it all back to a high school level,, educating students at the age they are ready for their license ...educating them on how to properly enjoy the outback’s and take care of it and advise the of the impact of driving thru watersheds and also letting them know of events that they can go to and to be part of the ever growing sport while enjoying it in a regulated controlled type of atmosphere where the impact is minimized

[Graham Adder]

I know there are some people that get their hackles up at being regulated.
Personally I think we have 'evolved' in such a way that we require regulations to keep us within our own set of boundaries we have set for ourselves. Collectively, the we wishes to protect our back country. In saying so, the we also must introduce regulations and enforce them because we haven't got the moral fiber to abide by the rules we set.

I'm for finding a way for all to have their fun. Unfortunately in order for that to happen we have to have people in place with a passion for their sport to organize...and...regulate.

There is no other way I can see it working. If we try to close the back country to all big tires, we will see that we will find ways around those laws/gates/decommission trenches.

More damage will be done and more funds wasted on trying to stop big tires from spinning mud or snow or both if we try an all out ban. Have we not learned from our past? Seeking balance works best. No?

It sucks that we have come to this, but unfortunately I think we have.

[emg]

MOT - I hate to rain on your parade of being able to host an event, but planning something on as large of a forum as Facebook (or even FuninBC/BC4x4 forums) will make your event subject to large public dissapproval. And since you are planning an event online, it will be monitored by the authorities responsible. Like Richard has pointed out, the CO Service is actively trying to manage unauthorized MV access in certain areas. As soon as anyone in your group goes off the road (which is pretty likely as you do not have complete control over everyone who attends your event) and causes any damage due to trying to mudbog/tear up ground, someone will find out and you as the organizer will be charged.

I think your idea of education of your user group is great, fantastic and certainly something that should be shared for the tread lightly principles, but taking it back to school level? Like I stated before, this is not the user group you should be targeting. 40 + is the age group I see 90 % of out there. AND they are not a group of people wishing to be preached to about sustainable and environmentally conscious back country mv use. Old dogs and new tricks and all. How do you plan on outreach for this user group?

[Rwede]

Let's summarize;
Two things that are becoming very obvious in this thread are that because some irresponsible individuals have previously caused damage, in various ways, to small portions of the back country others feel that because of this they too are in some way entitled to do likewise and because some damage has already been done some people feel this in some way makes it alright for them to do even more damage.

Really a pretty sad commentary on what our society has come to isn't it?

That's the problem (rarely do I agree with Krusty, but he's right). One irresponsible user leaves a set of ruts through an alpine meadow, and then everyone else with a bogger justifies ripping it apart because it's already damaged. That's what happened to Postill and Garnet.

I'm anti-regulation myself, because I enjoy simplicity in the outdoors and the escape from the "rules" of the city. Unfortunately, we have a generation of people out there that don't seem too concerned about anyone but themselves, and this has forced authorities into layering law upon law to try to control these people.

At some point, when it becomes unmanageable (it's getting close now), we're going to see locked watersheds just like they have in Greater Vancouver. We will ALL be locked out, whether we clean up garbage, whether we report violators, whether we tread lightly, or whether we watch birds and sing Kumbaya.

I've spoken with water managers who want to do exactly that. And one in particular, when I complained that he was going to lock ME out despite my being a steward of the outdoors, said "Honestly, I don't discriminate. I want all people out of the watershed, and I don't care who they are or what they do."

I don't care if I see people with 44s cruising a backroad in a convoy. I don't care if they travel an old washed out road and do some technical climbing through the rocks. I'd probably stop and have a good BS session with them (I only run piddly 35s on my truck). What I do care about is the ripped meadows and wetlands, and the irresponsible behaviour that will mean the end of everyone's access because of the actions of a few.

And still, no one on this thread can tell me why those with $250,000 trucks can't pool their resources and build a play park on their own land. Trust me when I tell you that looking to do this on Crown land will be the type of fuel the irrigation districts will need to lock the gate. They will spin it to get public opinion on their side by saying you're threatening everyone's water supply, and that people will die because of water issues, even when that is pure BS. They did it against cabin owners already and got the public and government on their side right away. Bogging is an easy target.

I think it's noble that some want to organize and get people away from the free for all. Unfortunately, their naivety on how to go about it will work against everybody in the outdoors. Heed my warning.

[quagmaire]

O.K. I had to come back if nothing else to say:
Thank you Richard, for writing a post that doesn't come off as condescending! Seriously, you and I seem to be on the same page with most of this but sometimes what you write is very difficult to read. The above is great! (really)

Now;

And still, no one on this thread can tell me why those with $250,000 trucks can't pool their resources and build a play park on their own land.

I can't speak for these guys, but I have wheeled with them. I think if you asked one directly the answer would be "why should I?".
The big dollar trucks that you mention are purpose built to get away from the crowds all while leaving no trace of their passage- that's why they are so expensive. (and believe me- they make it look easy)

On the other hand, anyone with a 4X4 and $800. worth of mud tires can do some serious damage to a trail (or creek crossing, or meadow, or marsh, or watershed...you get my point).

They will spin it to get public opinion on their side by saying you're threatening everyone's water supply, and that people will die because of water issues, even when that is pure BS. They did it against cabin owners already and got the public and government on their side right away. Bogging is an easy target.

This statement gave me flashbacks of the trouble the dirt bike club had on the west side not so long ago. *shudders*
Never will you see so much B.S. spewed as when someone pushes an agenda using 'public safety' .
I've seen it with off road access and airport security first hand.

(back to hiding in the corner)