Kelowna mud bogging and outdoor 4x4ing annual events

[cv23]

And still, no one on this thread can tell me why those with $250,000 trucks can't pool their resources and build a play park on their own land.

I can't speak for these guys, but I have wheeled with them. I think if you asked one directly the answer would be "why should I?".
The big dollar trucks that you mention are purpose built to get away from the crowds all while leaving no trace of their passage- that's why they are so expensive. (and believe me- they make it look easy)

On the other hand, anyone with a 4X4 and $800. worth of mud tires can do some serious damage to a trail (or creek crossing, or meadow, or marsh, or watershed...you get my point).

I may be interpreting this incorrectly quagmire but I almost sounds a bit like you're advocating that only those wealthy enough to have "the best" be allowed to operate their motor vehicles in the PUBLIC's back country.
And still the question of why this specialized group of motor sports enthusiasts can't just buy their own sand box to play in still remains unanswered. I myself enjoy automobile racing but when I want to watch or participate I do so at a private purpose built facility, not on a public road or in a public area. In the US these off-road park are abundant from what I've seen. If there are indeed as many off-road enthusiasts as some believe in this area then having the only official off-road park in the area should not only prove to be a popular attraction but a profitable one too.

Another big problem is that 30 years ago there weren't very many off-roaders so nature had plenty of time between visits to regenerate/heal. Now it seems every second soccer mom is driving a Land Rover or Hummer. Due to population growth the back country shrinks each year while the number of those having easier access to it seemingly grows exponentially each year.
There obviously must be a breaking point so sooner or later the NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES period signs will go up. Why not postpone the inevitable a few years, or even decades, by trying to have as many as possible of those who may potentially cause damage by their entertainment/actions/activities engage in those activities in a properly run specificly purpose built facility where they can home their skills, learn from and exchange information with like minded individuals?

[fvkasm2x]

Wow! I can not believe how ignorant some people can be and how off topic this form has gone.


If bogging/4X4 is so destructive to the water sheds and land, has anyone seen the pollution and garbage left behind by boaters? I have. Why don’t we ban all boats on the water.

Interesting.

Are you aware that littering is against the law? Did you know that boats found to be leaking oil and/or gas into the water are fined and taken out of the water?

There are already rules and laws in place for people who throw garbage into lakes and for boats unfit for water.

90% of your post was fairly well written, but these two sentences ruined it all for me. You shouldn't call other people ignorant for their posts, when you do the same thing they've done in yours.

[quagmaire]

I may be interpreting this incorrectly quagmire but I almost sounds a bit like you're advocating that only those wealthy enough to have "the best" be allowed to operate their motor vehicles in the PUBLIC's back country.
And still the question of why this specialized group of motor sports enthusiasts can't just buy their own sand box to play in still remains unanswered. I myself enjoy automobile racing but when I want to watch or participate I do so at a private purpose built facility, not on a public road or in a public area. In the US these off-road park are abundant from what I've seen. If there are indeed as many off-road enthusiasts as some believe in this area then having the only official off-road park in the area should not only prove to be a popular attraction but a profitable one too.

Another big problem is that 30 years ago there weren't very many off-roaders so nature had plenty of time between visits to regenerate/heal. Now it seems every second soccer mom is driving a Land Rover or Hummer. Due to population growth the back country shrinks each year while the number of those having easier access to it seemingly grows exponentially each year.
There obviously must be a breaking point so sooner or later the NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES period signs will go up. Why not postpone the inevitable a few years, or even decades, by trying to have as many as possible of those who may potentially cause damage by their entertainment/actions/activities engage in those activities in a properly run specificly purpose built facility where they can home their skills, learn from and exchange information with like minded individuals?

Hmmm, I see how you could interpret my comments that way. For the record, that wasn't my intention.

There have been several that have suggested that since there is so much money out there on crown land in trucks (referring to the recent article quoting 250K), that the owners of said trucks simply buy their own land. Unfortunately, there are actually very few of these high dollar trucks: 250K is the top, not the average and the people who have that kind of money (I hesitate to say) 'invested' in their rigs aren't the ones that people have recently miss-labeled 'boggers'. They spend that kind of money because they are passionate about the sport and love the outdoors. As mentioned before: This group is very specialized.
This group isn't the problem.

The outdoors should be accessible to everyone, and in general it is. What I was trying to imply, is that it becomes a numbers game; even though a very small percentage of users are abusers, the fact that thousands of trucks travel the forest service roads and trails through the summer actually makes the abusers a pretty large number, and unfortunately, the abusers are the most visible. The abusers are the ones that generate the calls for greater controls and outright closures. The users cringe at the thought of having the outdoors (my outdoors!) closed off. When you close off an area, the abusers don't just 'go away'... they simply go somewhere else.

Back to the topic:
A private off road park would give a lot of abusers (and users!) a place to safely test their skills and metal. It would be a destination. You can get the same adrenalin rush mashing the 'go pedal' through a man made pit as you get thrashing through a (insert inappropriate area here). You can test your new lift kit on a man made rock pile as opposed to the side of a bridge or tree. You can test your driving skills flexing out your truck on a man made... you get the point.

I would love to see a private off road facility somewhere in the valley. My wish list would include: parallel mud pits, a rock hill, log jam...that would be great! I especially hope to see grandstands and a concession, cause that's where you would find me and a lot of the snow wheelers; talking trucks and enjoying the action while our rigs sat in the garage, waiting for the snow to fly...

[huntress]

Wow! I can not believe how ignorant some people can be and how off topic this form has gone.


If bogging/4X4 is so destructive to the water sheds and land, has anyone seen the pollution and garbage left behind by boaters? I have. Why don’t we ban all boats on the water.

Interesting.

Are you aware that littering is against the law? Did you know that boats found to be leaking oil and/or gas into the water are fined and taken out of the water?

There are already rules and laws in place for people who throw garbage into lakes and for boats unfit for water.

90% of your post was fairly well written, but these two sentences ruined it all for me. You shouldn't call other people ignorant for their posts, when you do the same thing they've done in yours.

We are defiantly not on the same page with this on. I can get carried away with the sarcasm.

I know on land or water it is against the law to litter. Whether your car or your boat is leaking or emitting excessive fumes you will be pulled off the road/water and made to have your car or boat inspected and repair as required.
I was not realistically saying to pull all boat out of the water. I was saying if you can ban off road vehicles because there are a couple irresponsible ones why not ban all boater because there is a couple irresponsible ones. Get it?
I have been boating on Okanagan Lake for year and love it but yes I have seen the boat sitting in the middle of the lake sinking their beer can throwing there garbage over, I have seen the boat that is leaving an oil streak behind them but this is not all boater, same as not all off road users are out to pollute and leave garbage behind. Equal opportunity?

[NotLikeYou]

Wow! I can not believe how ignorant some people can be and how off topic this form has gone.


If bogging/4X4 is so destructive to the water sheds and land, has anyone seen the pollution and garbage left behind by boaters? I have. Why don’t we ban all boats on the water.

Interesting.

Are you aware that littering is against the law? Did you know that boats found to be leaking oil and/or gas into the water are fined and taken out of the water?

There are already rules and laws in place for people who throw garbage into lakes and for boats unfit for water.

90% of your post was fairly well written, but these two sentences ruined it all for me. You shouldn't call other people ignorant for their posts, when you do the same thing they've done in yours.

ok I had to jump back into this topic.


YOU THINK BECUASE THERE IS A LAW EVERYTHING IS FIXED? Take a look at our drivers. Then come talk to me after you /remove your head from bum. thank you.

[NotLikeYou]

One last thing,


If all of you eco nuts are SOOOOO worried about the planet and our environment, then why go battle something usefull like building dams on beautiful rivers, how people are dumping more garbage in the woods becuase of the new dumping laws, Maybe if your feeling really up to it take on some global warming. Become the next david suzuki


You know what I did yesterday,? I road my quad from smith creek over to bartley, I got stuck nuts deep in mud. crossed creeks on some cool looking man made bridges so the water wasnt left murky! I saw a cow moose, stopped watched it, saw some deer, Rolled some rocks off the path to make it safer for dirt biker and continued on with my day!

Then on my way back, I see 100's of feet of wood pounded into tree's and stumps for mountain bike trails and i see car doors and hoods used as jump take offs! I even seen housing signs and road signs and realtor signs used as jump faces!!

Then on an infamous walking path from tallus ridge to smithcreek that follows along a really old aqua duct system that I notice is all covered up in spray paint with tags and picutres all of it, (Couldnt imagine why kids would walk that far into the woods to tag some old metal lol ) I even seen some hikers ROLLING the old metal off the path so there "dogs" wouldnt get cut



Seems like everywhere ya go there's something or someone messing up the woods. Maybe its just our generations LACK of respect for the environment, Maybe all these eco nuts shoulda listend to there grandparents more when out in the woods and learn the ways of the woods.
I for one could be dropped off anywhere and survive. Could you?

[cstishenko]

Kelowna and area has a lot of "growing" to do.

As cities become larger - these issues that seem great to us now, are dealt with and addressed properly. A happy medium always seems to be found, all is well and forgotten about. Issues will arise from time to time, however the professionals in each sport always seems to make it right.

If you are not "professional" enough to properly address the issues - please stop crying on the internet. I realize forums help to raise awareness.. But to the OP, i'll be honest - I read very little of your overly written post. It's too long to get your point across cleanly.

If you are attempting to do what I think you are - Castanet forums are not the place to start. Begin your research with Offroad and Motorsports Parks in the United States and how they got their sanctioning. Find out how the BC Driving Center was built in Pitt Meadows, BC. Use that information to your advantage in stating your case.Then from there you will need to include powerful businesses and respected individuals from the community behind you and your cause. Once a plan is in motion - then is the time to bring it to the public. Many of which will be on opposition - but with proper knowledge and backing... Something might come of it.

Now don't get me wrong - i'm all for motorized outdoor sports. Mud bogging, Autocrossing, Knox Mountain Hillclimb, Motocrossing, Boating and etc.. I participate in all of the above with bogging being the exception.

And if you can't make it happen/ don't have the motivation, time and money to make it happen.. Move to somewhere remote where things like that are still "cool" like Nakusp?

Have a great long weekend all.

[NotLikeYou]

^^good post above

I Don't ever see kelowna allowing something like this. You said your a motocrosser, You should then know how many years it took and how much money and how many friendships were broken to try and get that track up an running and when they did they had it shut down again for 6 years and just re opended. Its the type of people that live here, A very un-atractive type as well, Ever hear anyone say "the people of kelowna are really nice" or is it just "its really pretty there" or "it gets super hot in the summer there"

Honestly, If they jsut gave that area around postill lake you wouldnt see boggers way out in the woods no more. that area around postill is going to take over 100 years to fix. from the all the erosian etc. So why not just let them have the ONE place that is already *******d.

[Mack of Trades]

Ok guys ….i was out on my daily journey and in the day had brought me to a local auto parts store where my best friend has worked for about 10 years,,, I know the owners well and have been friends of the family for many many years …when I brought up the conversation about the organization that I was trying to bring forth for more outdoor motorized events/ activities to the area. My friend asks me was it was all about so I mentioned it to him and had he read a little of it ….
Well at that point he smiled and said man they are building one as we speak, he went on explaining that a group of people petitioned the government or such for a portion of land to create this off-roading courses on... And the piece of land was granted he stated …
Though I did not hear the straight from the sources I do trust the people that I have talked to on the matter to be telling the truth ,,,though they could not elaborate much on it they said they helped( maybe donated towards) out towards the persons and group that was creating this outdoor portion of land
I was told that the machinery has dug ground and that this place to 4x4 is on its way to becoming around …I was sooooo excited when I heard this,
Apparently this person or persons from this group may work at Kelowna flight craft I would like if anyone knows this person or persons/club … if they could get them to briefly pop on here and share a little information straight from the source that would be absolutely perfect ….
Until then I will do my best to hunt down this group of people and get some facts to share with all of you … thank again guys for all the reply’s and suggestions lets purge forward together converse and make this dream for a lot of us a much needed reality …
More to come when I find and contact the sources till then friends enjoy you'r may long weekend

[cv23]

Honestly, If they jsut gave that area around postill lake you wouldnt see boggers way out in the woods no more. that area around postill is going to take over 100 years to fix. from the all the erosian etc. So why not just let them have the ONE place that is already *******d.

So because a group destroyed a piece of land through an illegal activity we should reward them by giving them the land? Just how would this discourage this same group and other groups from destroying other pieces of land just so they could have them too, then another piece, and another .......? Giving this type of group any land will only result in public property destroyed. Again why can't they just buy and destroy their own property rather than expecting to be given public property to destroy?
Why shouldn't the destroyed land around Postill Lake be given that 100 + years to heal so it is there for future generations to enjoy or is it just you could give a damn about anybody else as long as you get what you want today?

How about we keep the backwoods open for everyone to use and enjoy but rather than a piddly $500 fine for destructive offenses like bogging we make the fine $10k and an automatic forfeiture of the vehicle? That would make the idea of participating in such destructive activities in a private off-road park far more attractive.

[fvkasm2x]

Honestly, If they jsut gave that area around postill lake you wouldnt see boggers way out in the woods no more. that area around postill is going to take over 100 years to fix. from the all the erosian etc. So why not just let them have the ONE place that is already *******d.

So because a group destroyed a piece of land through an illegal activity we should reward them by giving them the land?

Naturally, CV.

Me and you should go take a few dumps on NotLikeYou's yard every day for a few weeks. Eventually, he will get mad that we ruined his yard and will just sign over his house to us. We can then renovate it and flip it for a hefty profit. Afterall, we'll get the property for free after we wreck it.

[cstishenko]

How about we keep the backwoods open for everyone to use and enjoy but rather than a piddly $500 fine for destructive offenses like bogging we make the fine $10k and an automatic forfeiture of the vehicle? That would make the idea of participating in such destructive activities in a private off-road park far more attractive.

" During the 1990s, the B.C. Government charged a Delta landfill owner with placing waste on 7 acres of Burns Bog. In 2004, the landfill owner was fined $715,000 and sentenced to jail for 21 days. "
Cited from: http://www.sunburyneighbourhood.ca/habitat.htm

You can in fact recieve a fine in upwards of $100,000 and a year in jail for destroying sensitive wooded areas!

http://bcwildfire.ca/ftp/HEN/external/! ... lyer_8.pdf

In favor of it? Not necessarily. But it sure takes the wind out of Mud-Boggers sails.

When adventuring in the backwoods, it is at times necessary to cross a stream that resulted in a puddle or mud hole to continue on your journey. Especially during spring run-off. As with anyone, I would be furious if I was handed a fine for doing such thing (as i've admittedly had to do before).

"keep the backwoods open for everyone to enjoy"?? Someone such as myself with a background of offroad driving, and a properly equipped 4x4 truck will do less harm than "Jim" the soccer dad who pilots an in-capable Hummer H3. "Jim" thinks it'd be a good idea to take the kids camping, but gets stuck in getting to the camp spot and makes a bigger mess for more people than he can even fathom.

There are multiple sides to every story. I've witnessed average every day people cause more harm than anyone with a head of outdoor common sense and a propely equipped vehicle.

[cv23]

http://bcwildfire.ca/ftp/HEN/external/! ... lyer_8.pdf

In favor of it? Not necessarily. But it sure takes the wind out of Mud-Boggers sails.

I'd still like to see the offending vehicle forfeited as this would likely do the most to ensure the offender not repeat the offense and would provide additional revenue for the forestry dept through auctions of seized vehicles.

"keep the backwoods open for everyone to enjoy"??

It is public land so placing restrictions on just who can and who cannot use it is not really appropriate. If you are going to be allowed to use public land then so must "Jim". The difference would be who would be careful/considerate/knowledgeable enough to ensure they didn't get a $100k fine (and their vehicle seized).

[cstishenko]

Anyone is allowed on the lake - there is no regulation to who can and cannot use it.... BUT

You need a boaters liscence.....

How about a backwoods liscence?

This would not necessarily ensure proper use and care while in the backwoods, but if one is to disobey the backwoods rules that they clearly knew about... Whatever fine is set could easily be imposed.

I agree with proper use of sensitive wooded areas - I disagree that mud bogging should be frowned upon all together.

Everything in its right place, and Postil is not the right place for it.

[dlarrivee]

I tried to mention that mud bogging isn't ever going to be a good idea, and there are 4wd enthusiasts who prefer technical trails, rocks, hills, etc. rather than just getting stuck and broken in a swamp...

If you want to drive through a huge pool of water and mud, someone is going to have to provide the land to do it on.